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Javascript enabled

The numbers....

   
2:35 pm on Jun 27, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hi All

Does anybody have any figures concerning the number of people who surf with javascript enabled browsers ?

Thanks in advance

5:07 pm on Jun 27, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rcjordan is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Fresh off one of my pages, covering the last 14 months:
515057 uniques
js enabled = 506366 - 98.31%

Demographic: general public / general interest, Mid-Atlantic states.

9:38 pm on Jun 27, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator brett_tabke is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Let me guess, was that with a JS based counter rc? (tongue in cheek)

I'll agree it is pretty high, but I doubt it is over 90% yet. Especially when you consider most sites are hit with 15-25% of their traffic from spiders.

10:12 pm on Jun 27, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rcjordan is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Yes, you got me BT. But I'd go no less than 95% for a non-tech, family-oriented site which is likely to be getting a machine/browser straight out of the box. The site has been using js navigation for the bulk of the internal navigation for 18 months without a peep out of the users for about the last 12 of those. (But, it's hurting me in Google, so I'm going to leave js nav.)
8:09 am on Jun 28, 2001 (gmt 0)

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Thanks for the info Brett & RC
12:11 am on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

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My sites seem to be hovering around 92% with *some* level of JS. Whether it's enough for your specific purpose depends on what you're trying to do.

Xoc

7:24 am on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Yeah, rc, but how many are you just losing that are going away because your site requires javascript. A good site will work without javascript, even if it doesn't work the same. This is called graceful degradation.

For example, if you have javascript turned on, when you select something from a dropdown you immediately go to another page. If you have javascript turned off you have to select the item, then press the "go" button.

I browse with javascript turned off, and I find it amazing how many sites just don't work with it off. If the site isn't important to me, I just go find another site.

7:56 am on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

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> I browse with javascript turned off,

yes you do that, but how many users can turned off/on javascript in their browser, or know they can do that ??
I think most of users just use their browser with the default configuration, and i think javascript is on as default (for browser who support javascript of course).

8:36 am on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



A familiar argument, browsers come with javascript on by default and non geeks will not change this, just as theres a good chance they will be using some form of IE.

My take on this is what percentage of people would you consider it ok to inconvenience or turn away? 5%, 10%? Because a site is for the general public doesnt mean that geeks wont view it. I've just looked at one of my sites (sells boots - pretty non-geek) and some visitors use linux some of them might not even realise that they are because they are using a set-top box.

Its easy to make assumptions about who will view the site but its not very accurate.

2:12 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rcjordan is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



>Yeah, rc, but how many are you just losing that are going away because your site requires javascript

8-10%, been living with that for about 2 years now.

2:44 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



> Its easy to make assumptions about who will view the site but its not very accurate.

I agree with you but it happens that we put sites online that are just working fine for IE (last version) and netscape.
I say :
- ok, it's good, it work for IE and netscape but it doesn't for others.
- no probleme because all others are less than 10% (most of time client has IE) and it's a waste of time to test on every browser and every platform. And this a site for general public not for geeks. and common people have IE last version, high speed, all the plug-in, ...

So what can i do ??
i'm not the boss, i just obey and pass to the following project.

2:48 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



One of the sites I look after gets quite a lot of customer queries such as resolution probs, cookie, probs and even how do i use the site BUT never any probs with people not having JS enabled. (If it isn't enabled there is no way the site will work at all ;)

Anyone who has this disabled is going to know why the site won't work.

You may as well have all images disabled and then complain that other sites dont work properly cos the naviagtion is screwed ;)

3:01 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



The next question would be why does Yahoo exclude javascript enabled sites from their index, if approximately 90% of surfers browse with it turned on ? They talk about backward compatibility with browsers but how long will they take this into consideration, its not as if javascript is going to go away as it is a useful tool for webmasters in all its guises.

It seems that the majority are being penalised so that the minority can be pandered to

3:06 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



>The next question would be why does Yahoo exclude javascript enabled sites from their index

I just got 6 sites into Yahoo that all rely totally on javascript.

3:09 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



so waht is this thread all about....

[webmasterworld.com...]

I am getting confused about this issue now, with conflicting views form different people.

3:23 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hmmm I see what you mean.

I can send you an url if you like, I ain't making it up.

;)

Xoc

3:23 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



If you were a bricks-and-mortar store and said to about 10% of the people walking up to the door, "sorry, your shoe laces are the wrong color, you can't come in, you'll have to go down the street to the competitor or change your shoe laces" how long are you going to stay in business?

Sites [6]don't need javascript[/6]! It should be an optional thing that enhances the viewability of a site, not a required feature to get in.

(edited by: Xoc at 3:29 pm (gmt) on June 29, 2001

3:26 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Xoc do you not like javascript?

;)

3:28 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



knighty: "You may as well have all images disabled and then complain that other sites dont work properly cos the naviagtion is screwed"

in fact it's a legal requirement for many sites...it must be possible for a blind person to navigate the site using a text to speech browser

it's just as important when it comes to javascript...a site should be navigable without it...you may not lose many viewers, but you'll be losing savvy viewers who know the security risks of javascript and who are on the web enough to be a bit bored with bells and whistles on web sites

ever heard of the marketing idea of "opinion formers"?...I suggest it might be worth reading up on it...in many cases these are exactly the people you will be losing

3:44 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



nicebloke : I believe you its just confusing as I became concerned when macguru stated that it was a guideline in the Yahoo specifications, however if you are getting sites in with javascript functions then this would seem to say that this is not a reason for Yahoo's rejection of a site. I would just like to be sure that javascript nav isn't an issue before risking money unnecessarily trying to get a site in that stood no chance from the outset.
3:48 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



One of the sites in question is a big uk player and does around 2 million in online orders per month. I think Yahoo would have had difficulty in turning it down.

(edited by: nicebloke at 3:51 pm (gmt) on June 29, 2001

3:49 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Xoc

Unfortunately our clients decide on what type of navigation is used, purely on aesthetics and what they have seen elsewhere on the web, if we did not give them what they wanted they would go to somebody who would. The criteria of being indexed by Yahoo does not carry much weight with them unfortunately, however much you explain the situation.

Bootomline if the corporate client wants javascript navigation then the corporate client will get it.

3:49 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Easy Tiger,

The sites which Iook after all use JS but it aint my doing and there is zero I can do to change the ways of those above me ;)

So whats the alternative to JS? Validating forms? Swapping Images? Using Layers? Redirecting Browsers? Detection? etc

3:54 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

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I'm sorry I should have ended my previous post with a :)

Friday, going home...need beer...missing the football season :)

3:57 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



me 2 beeeeer yummy. S@d javascript! :)
5:02 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rcjordan is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



>you can't come in.... how long are you going to stay in business?

I own several bricks-n-mortar stores in different businesses, you always have customers that you can't serve or satisfy. Defining who you're going to serve and who you're going to blow off is a part of the business plan, that's all. Brett & I have debated over "acceptable losses" since day one. He likes to stop and gather in strays, I ignore them. The important thing to note is that we've both been successful in our strategies.

So far as the readers go, I'm perfectly happy with javascript and the level of management it allows me to exercise over the site. The sites are extraordinarily successful as niche publications and -frankly- I wouldn't have been able to jockey several thousand pages into the level of sustained readership they enjoy without js.

6:59 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I honestly didnt think that this kind of attitude would be widespread in somewhere like WmW :( I don't use IE, I don't have a fast connection - maybe I am a geek but that doesnt mean I don't visit mainstream sites, I wear clothes, buy CD's, look for new houses etc.. just as much as someone who doesnt thinks that the internet is best viewed with internet explorer.

So whats the alternative to JS? Validating forms? Swapping Images? Using Layers? Redirecting Browsers? Detection? etc

The alternative to all these are server side scripting, The only things that dont like image swapping and manipulating layers are only frills anyway and dont affect whether a site is navigable and degrade gracefully - if the viewer doesnt have jabbascript then they can still navigate the site.

Sites that force users to conform to their wishes really get my goat :)

7:02 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member mivox is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



said to about 10% of the people walking up to the door, "sorry..." how long are you going to stay in business?

Thai restaurants don't worry about customers with peanut allergies, steakhouses often ignore the 'issue' of serving vegetarians and dieters, lingerie shops often ignore the existence of 'plus-size' customers when ordering their lacy things... If you have a specific service, and/or a specific target audience that you know well, that should be your primary consideration.

Pick your target demographic and go with it. If you're trying to sell advanced cgi scripts to techie geeks, you're site better run like a dream with ALL the bells & whistles turned off, and it better not have a browser sniffer that forgot to include Linux...

But if you're after Mom-n-Pop Middle American, with their gateway/dell/etc. "internet special" $700 computer that came with all the software pre-installed, they're going to have javascript and cookies turned on, and they're going to love your mouseovers and nifty pop-up messages.

8:05 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rcjordan is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



>I honestly didnt think that this kind of attitude would be widespread in somewhere like WmW
>Sites that force users to conform to their wishes really get my goat

My insensitivity is well known in some circles, tpk. And as for the whole of WmW, I expect that your view is in the majority. I'm not trying to be brusque, just stating a decision I've made with very deliberate consideration; As a publisher, my assumption is that my traffic is free to vote with the back button and go elsewhere. From where I sit, and looking at just my publications, it was the right decision.

8:20 pm on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



:)
Sorry I ranted a little.:(
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