Forum Moderators: open
At first I found it very funny. I haven't called someone Mister since I had teachers in college.
Am I just out of it, or is introducing yourself as "Mr." very strange. I tried saying it out loud using my own name and couldn't stop laughing.
After thinking about it for awile, I actually found I felt a bit insulted. Am I so "Below" this guy that I'm not allowed to call him by his first name...
I thought only licensed barristers (lawyers) put esq. after their names
That's going back a bit ;)
Has become common usage in the UK to call anyone "esquire" instead of "gentleman" (Mr).
[en.wikipedia.org...]
When I was little, my grandparents would send snail mail addressed to "Master ..."
Letters sent from home to kids at summer camp were always addressed to Master...
Never knew why. But all the kids got letters like that and I was very impressed when my letters from home carried the same title. VERY classy, I thought.
Now if they'd only get me out of the stinkin' place...!
I would address a "cold" email to first names in North America but with the honorific and family name in Europe.
Other cultures have different ways of addressing people.
For example, some wives adopt a husband's title in German ("Mrs Engineer Schmidt", "Mrs Dr Weber") although it is not common and some native speakers take great delight in replying without the full title. And no, I have never heard of a husband assuming a wife's title.
Letters sent from home to kids at summer camp were always addressed to Master...
I'm guessing the Bates boys did not like this.
I've resisted chipping in until now, but two glasses of cava have loosened my tongue/fingers.
1) I dislike being referred to by my first name by people who don't know me, such as marketing droids or over-chirpy customer-service staff. Call me Mr HD when you want to sell me something or otherwise take my time and money!
2) Once I do know someone, I dislike any insistence on titles. There is one chump that I used to have to work with who insisted on being called "Dr XXX" even though (a) his work was mediocre and politically driven, ie dangerously broken and we're still picking up the pieces and (b) I have a Masters to his PhD, but also much more experience of other areas than him. He may *think* that people respect him, but most laugh behind their hands at such a pompous attitude! He will probably never know. He also drives overly-expensive cars, which makes me think that he could be lacking in the trouser department!
Rgds
Damon
PS. Lilliabeth, are you suggesting that the naming convention that you refer to would somehow rub the said Masters Bates up the wrong way? Prey tell...
Oh, and I don't do cold calling/emailing. I am either emailing present customers to try to increase the frequency of the transactions, or I am returning emails from folks who have inquired about our services. Sometimes I have not personally met the customer.
Having said that, I can't picture a circumstance when I would find it annoying for anyone close to my own age to call me by my first name.
I'm in the Southeast USA.
The book Business Class, Etiquette Essentials for Success at Work says "It is better to be more formal than too casual when you want to make a good impression." It goes on to recommend surnames until the person signs with his first name. I know it's true, but if I get an email addressed to Mrs. XXXXX, my initial reaction is that the sender is an outsider, not from here.
Incidentally, here is is common for younger people to address their elders as Ms. Firstname or Mr. Firstname.
Is that common anywhere else?
And many children call their grandparents "Meemaw" and "Pawpaw". Not a fan of that.
"Master Used as a courtesy title before the given or full name of a boy not considered old enough to be addressed as Mister."
My grandmother used to send me birthday cards addressed to "Master (name)" Even at a young age, I saw it as neutral, but it seemed a little flip-flopped. I'm guessing that both age and customs of physical location make big differences in addressing people, like stated previously. I don't think she's ever sent me anything addressed to Mister. Maybe I never made the step up.
Totally improper, I understand, to do that outside a teaching setting. (in the U.S.). Had a PhD in high school that everyone called "Doctor." Had another teacher who had briefly been a state senator and everyone called him "Senator..."
Lawyers are referred to as Doctor in latin America. You sometimes see Fidel Castro referred to as Dr. Castro. Improper for a U.S. JD (juris doctor) to call himself a Doctor.
-------
How about Colonel Sanders?
If you think this concept is silly, be patient. Wait for about 10-20 years and my generation will all be dead.
As an aside, I was elected to public office in the U.S. for three consecutive terms. Technically an elected officials title is "The Honorable." Hmmm, think about that one and it may be easier for you to say Mr. or Mrs.
your generation
Mrs. Shallow, Whose generation?
easier for you to say Mr. or Mrs.
Who are you referring to as "you"?
Best to be formal at first meeting, with everyone, and if they say "Call me Jack", later fine. People _love_ to be addressed formally on first meeting, with the exception of a few middle-class socialists (who're nevertheless paying slave wages to the Latvian nanny).
I detest the pseudo-egalitarianism that exists in business now. Sales assistants half your age being famliar with you. Bosses who want to be hip, so they encourage the photocopier boy to call them "Trevor".
The truth is, you ain't his pal, and he ain't yours. A total distortion of the _real_ power relationship; he's the boss, and you're the servant.
I long for a return to old-fashioned civility; the essence of which is: you are polite and formal with everyone until they give you permission, either directly, or by inference, to be informal.
e.g. Civil servants should address each other as Mr., Ms. or Mrs., Sir or Madam. Everyone knows where they stand and the office jerk can't 'get at' you so easily.
"How may I help you Madam?"
"You can start by calling me 'Alex'".
I know. I'm twice his age. He needn't rub it in.
Anyway they have real difficultly believing 'Madam Miles' ran a proper ping and traceroute before calling for help. They usually believe an 'Alex', and don't make me do it again.
You've been traumatising the help for no good reason :)
I always refer to my customers by their first name. And I have a lot of customers... Both in emails and over the phone. I've actually found that it really helps "Break the ice" and makes the customer feel more comfortable with me as a Person, not just a Sales Rep.
I detest "formal" type meetings though, so maybe its just my personality type. I know everyone is different, but I prefer to be on a first name, friendly basis with my customers.
I understand it's the norm in the USA.
I think if you're not sure who you're dealing with, it's best to be formal. It _can_ intimidate some folk, as you'll sound, to them, like an authority figure, but it's safer.
The _real_ trick is to figure out from their accent, and what they say, how old they are, their education level, and where they're from, and tailor your response accordingly.
Here's what you said about customers who introduce themselves as "Mr." So-and-so:
"very funny"
"very strange"
That when you tried it using your own name that you:
"couldn't stop laughing"
"felt a bit insulted"
And you implied that the Mr. Guy felt you were:
"so below" him
I don't think you could be more wrong.
If you choose to be on a "first name, friendly basis with my customers," so be it. Laugh all you want. But I'll stick with tigertom's that it's "Best to be formal at first meeting, with everyone, and if they say 'Call me Jack', later fine" because I feel it is the most respectful thing to do.
You've been traumatising the help for no good reason :)
'Educating' them. I have been kindly educating them :)
It is the socialisation of the hard sell: get up close, well within a person's personal space and then push some more via a loud demanding false-cheerful voice and a crushing handshake while using first (personal) names. Pure domination play.
My response is a cool "have we met?" and a refusal to shake hands. The subsequent 'normal' introduction allows me to set my Mr./Ms. rules for business acquaintances - so many people these days seem unable to differentiate acquaintance and friend or business and personal. Another general American social import I regret.
My children switch between formality modes almost instinctively. This may well be the real future. They move through several social (including quite formal immigrant) communities and various age groups adjusting behaviour on the fly. I am old and fossilising nicely.
>>Another general American social import I regret.
Alas, Americans get blamed for everything. <sigh>
Be that as it may, I am an American and most, if not all, of my friends go the Mr, Mrs/Ms, Dr. route.
Also an export is not necessarily what is found at home. Exports tend to be less diverse. Yet the export is all that many have by which to judge.
US media has changed drastically (look at shows in each of the last five decades) in terms of social formality and that media sets 'the' social standard for much of the worlds young to emulate or reject.
Rapid general forced informality in business relations is also an American export. Not good, not bad, just different, just change. That specific Americans retain 'old' mores neither negates the general influence nor its source.
What youth decides to import and adopt can just as readily be assigned to a group that is seeking change, rather than having change thrust upon them.
If you get an order from Dr. and this dr. comes from Germany or Austria - do not be surprised as it is their habit
In Germany (and I think in Austria as well) the "Dr." actually becomes part of your legal name. Once you finished your doctorate and got the title, it gets registered in the civil registry office and becomes a fully legal part of your name. The disciplines actually have a code of conduct which enforce that you actually use your title in all official transactions and when signing. Same applies for the "Prof." after your habilitation when you became a "professor".
Where Germany only has its "Doctors" and "Professors", it's even more spectacular in Austria. Since the era of the K.u.K Monarchy (the whole "Princess Sissi" thing - look it up in Wikipedia if you think it sounds funny) titles are very important for Austrians. The late novelist Ephraim Kishon has pointed out that every liftboy in Austria seems to be a "Doctor", but they have even more fancy titles like "Hofrat" (court counsellor) or "Geheimrat" (privy councillor - no kidding) and lots of combinations like "Geheimer Hofrat Prof. Dr. Resetarits". For non-Austrians it seems rather quaint, but I have been told its important for the Austrians. When it comes down to it however, I guess the actual legal status is the same as in Germany where Dr. and prof. become part of your actual name.
In the U. K. it is terribly rude to write "Dear Jane Doe", it must be "Dear Mrs. Doe" or "Dear Miss. Doe". And if the lady has written "Jane Doe" beneath her signature you are stuck with "Dear Mrs./Miss. Doe" or similar (and no, there is no way I will ever use the horrid term 'Ms'). I don't offer it in forms and I don't use it.
RE: Non-medical People who call themselves "Doctor" when they have PhDs.
Anyone who holds a doctorate is entitled to be termed Doctor. The problem is that due to there being more frequent contact with medical practicioners than with PhD (or similar) holders, the term sometimes gets confused. The USA has it right in calling a medical practicioner a Physician. "Doctor" is not a job title but a title indicitive of a certain high level of expertise.
In my view there is nothing wrong with a PhD holder using his title as he has certainly earnt it. Would you criticise the recipient of a knighthood for calling himself Sir. outside of the royal court?
Another good reason that I use Mr. when I'm calling a company is that the person who answers the phone frequently has to type in your name or relay it to someone else downstream. Using Mr. Surname is a lot fewer characters to pronounce carefully, spell, and then repeat phonetically than Firstname Surname.
