Forum Moderators: martinibuster
There's a remedy for malpractice: Money damages and the loss of a professional license in extreme cases.
What is the remedy for people who suffer harm because they relied on other webmasters, instead of the AdSense team, to interpret the AdSense TOS?
There is no remedy, no "fixing it". No accountability. That leaves this: "Well, you knew you couldn't actually count on our advice. You should have asked Google."
So when, if ever, should we interpret the AdSense TOS - the "legal documents" of AdSense for another member? Should we engage in this practice at all? What's a rational limit?
Here's my analysis.
Violations of the AdSense TOS and related documents is potentially fatal. Interpreting the AdSense rules is a lot like exercising judgment in the practice of medicine: Not everyone should do it because, in the wrong hands, bad judgment can kill people.
We know this about doctors: They are licensed by the State. We know this means that they had to successfully complete many years of school, pass tests and keep abreast of changes. Even with all the oversight charlatans - pretenders - still infiltrate the practice from time to time. When caught, the usually go to jail.
What do we know about "us webmasters", who post anonymously in most cases, who "practice medicine for webmasters" when they answer questions about the AdSense TOS? Unfortunately, the answer is often "not much, really".
Who has the proper credentials for offering guidance about the AdSense TOS?
I've met members who, by their own admission, are constantly testing the limits. I won't tell you who they are or what they do. Do you know who these members are? Do you know if the person giving advice routinely pushes the envelope?
Does Jenstar have the proper credentials? No doubt more than any other member. With those credentials does Jenstar routinely weigh in on issues of interpreting the AdSense TOS? No. She may list recent changes, but I have not witnessed her making a habit of interpreting the TOS when questions are raised. With all her expertise I would neither expect her to do that nor ask her to do that.
Why?
Because, I suspect, she - as well as anyone assigned to mod this forum - appreciates the fact that such practices would make it appear that the mod is acting somewhat like Google's spokeswoman on the issue of AdSense TOS interpretation. Not a good idea, right? I'm reasonably certain that she abstains for other good reasons, too, such as a concern that no one should suffer harm by relying on her guidance when there's a better method for resolving such issues: Ask the AdSense team.
It's misguided to rely on us - WW -versus them - the AdSense team - because 1) there's an actual process in place for getting approval from Google that would certainly inoculate you IF you follow the AdSense team's advice; 2) approval by one's peers is no defense whatsoever to the dreaded "improper clicks" letter; 3) there are people at WW who are obviously willing to push the envelope, as evidenced by the recent slew of "I got the termination email" threads.
Do you know, if you adopt the advice given here, if you are following the advice of a conservative WW member or a risk taking WW member? Do you understand that there's reasons why many members don't post their website address?
You don't even know if the person responding is a competitor.
I don't see it as unfriendly at all to be blunt on the score of answering questions that could potentially lead to someone's account being terminated. Indeed, I think it's unfriendly to offer assurances to someone who has reason to doubt.
I think the only good advice is 1) Read the Google AdSense TOS and other guidelines; and, 2) If you're still not certain then ask the AdSense team.
So, in the interest of ending a habit that I think is wrongheaded I'm going to be the voice that says what I think needs to be said the way I think it needs to be said: When in doubt about whether specific conduct now - or in the near future - may be deemed to violate the AdSense TOS ask AdSense, not us.
Expressed differently: If "we" can't refer you to specific language in the AdSense TOS and supporting documents then we ought to do you the service of advising you like this: "We don't know, but we infer it's okay, but don't rely on us. Ask Google."
Do I think that every question about the TOS should make us run for cover? No, especially where you can point to the exact language of the TOS that covers the issue.
Do I think everyone who has a question should first be asked "Have you read and re-read the AdSense TOS before coming here?" If you don't think that that is a good idea then you, IMHO, are not doing the person a favor. I think that many people fall victim because they have not done that. This invokes the old saw about "teaching someone to fish versus handing them a fist". Frankly, I think Google ought to require AdSense applicants to first pass an online test before activating new member accounts. That could possibly cut down on new, active member questions by 10 - 20%+
One man's opinion.
The floor is open for debate. Stick to the analysis and leave personas at the door. ;0)
[edited by: Webwork at 3:20 pm (utc) on Mar. 25, 2005]
Referencing your example:
Joe Publisher has a site and he has a template that runs AdSense on every single page of his site - including a thank you page and the custom 404 page. He asks here if he's allowed to do it.
When we tell Joe Publisher "nope, that's not okay" are we giving Joe our best? The reason I ask is that Joe's question is likely a "flag" that Joe either hasn't read the all the relevant Google guides lately or never read them at all or simply can't grasp them. Why might I infer this? Because Google's guides state, somewhat plainly,
No Google ad may be placed on any non-content-based pages. This includes error, login, registration, "thank you" or welcome pages.
[google.com...]
Now, I know you gave that example as any easy one to illustrate how we can be a ready source of help. I'm in complete agreement that - where the T&C are clear - we're on safe ground "giving advice".
However, if someone asks an easy one to answer isn't that exactly when - in the interest of helping a noob - should we consider taking a step back?
Maybe tell them we are concerned for their sake because they just asked a question for which the answer isn't that hard to discern?
Should we wonder "if they don't know the answer to 'that question' chances are they might not know other things which could get them in trouble". Worse, they don't even know it - because they never bothered to truly familiarize themselves?
I'm not certain that the business of handing out fish, without first asking the person to take a fishing lesson, is the best approach. I know it's great to help someone, but IMHO, since the answers in this realm may involve someone's livelihood, I feel compelled to argue "for higher expectations" - that the person "do more" - before we hand them a fish.
I'm arguing that, when someone raises a question for which the answer is somewhat transparent - if you have read and familiarized yourself with the rules - that that is the very person for whom the best approach to helping them is arguably to first advise them (strongly urge?) that what they need to do is read the T&C, etc. to find the answer.
IF, after doing that, they still can't understand the issue or answer their own question, then it's likely that - for that person - something more than handing them a fish (an easy answer) IS in order if one truly wishes to aid the noob.
Food for thought:
1. If we give the easy answers that can be problematic.
2. If we give the more complex answers that can be problematic.
In our ready willingness to help we may be disserving the interests of those we help, and it could cost them their livelihood.
In our ready willingness to help we may be disserving the interests of those we help, and it could cost them their livelihood.
First of all if they going to a forum and basing the information from any member/mod on making their life decisions they are making a big mistake.
Why is this in the AdSense forums? Why not in any other of the forums here? People are given advice on how to build, optimize, choose scripts, cloak, and every other item under the sun that could just as easily cost them their livlihood on the web. Why not just point them to the SE's guidelines, the Apache Manual, and tell them to buzz off and not ask questions when they can read it for themselves somewhere else?
edited: and webwork when you edit your posts, why not do something like I am doing here and tell people you edited your post or added to it. The above post has changed a few times since I read it.
edited again: and now you changed it drastically again... hehe
If someone who described their job as "running webservers" asked me "What's a domain" I'd assume that what they really meant, when they said they "run webservers", was that they deliver them.
To some extent what you are proposing is quite likely an exercise in futility. The people most in need of reading, or rereading the TOC, or most likely to benefit from asking Google a question directly, may well be those least inclined to do so, no matter how often, or how directly they hear the message.
It's a bit like telling someone [you think] their posts drip with arrogance and condescension, the worst offenders are unlikely to recognize such qualities in themselves, even when the comment is addressed directly to them.
-----------------
edited to add the [you think].
[edited by: ken_b at 9:58 pm (utc) on Mar. 25, 2005]
READ VERY CAREFULLY THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND THE FAQ . . . FOR THE GOOGLE ADSENSE ONLINE PROGRAM.
Participation in the Program is subject to Google prior approval and Your continued compliance with the Program Policies
Site must also adhere to Google's WebMaster Guidelines, found at [google.com...] or such other URL as Google may provide from time to time.
4 sets of standards of behavior. When is the last time anyone here read them cover to cover?
Noobs, have you done your homework? Have you studied them? Is it possible that sometime soon "an examination" will be given? (To your website.)
Jomaxx, these are rules I'm writing? Nah. Food for thought only. Perhaps provocative at times, but that's part of the process in certain cases. Given the very real concerns of T&C violations I'll risk it.
Ken_b, call it anything you like. There's plenty of times when I'm playful and kid around. On this score my comments have taken on a lot more gravity, condescension if you prefer. Why? Because I think this issue is deadly serious. I suspect that it's game over and the recent flurry of "I've been banished" posts is just the start. I suspect that advertisers are making their views known and there's a growing concern about the issue of quality.
I could be wrong, but I doubt it. If that's arrogant I've got the skin for your arrows. What I care about is people who may be somewhat asleep at the wheel, not people who would prefer to comment about my comments. I really don't mind your sarcasm. If I save a single person from stepping over the line then it's worth it. If that means you won't drink a beer with me at the next PubConf that's too bad. When I'm not "all business" I do enjoy a good chat and a few laughs. ;0)
[edited by: Webwork at 10:14 pm (utc) on Mar. 25, 2005]
Man, I don't want to sound harsh, but what's the sudden concern of AdSense forum or it's rules/guidelines of the program?
Like I said, someone could just as easily hurt their livelihood by taking any one persons advice anywhere in any one of these forums?
If I put a script that does something into someone's hands that has no way to use it properly it can do much more harm than good.
I know and have had clients whom have had websites longer than me and they still ask why it isn't a good deal for $19.95 to submit their sites to 50K search engines and submit all their pages every month to Google. They have been on the web for years and have no idea what a nameserver is, what FTP means, or how to create an email account let alone they had never been to their hosting account control panel.
What I'm trying to say is every area of WebmasterWorld and the information it contains could hurt someone if they picked out one post and based their livelihood on it. If that's the case they may as well lose their livelihood and start over a little smarter. The Adsense forum is no different!
When is the last time anyone here read them cover to cover?
Less than a week ago :)
But now you are acting like the google special police, its not your job Webworks, its not YOUR job
hey I have always time for a beer with you Webwork ;)
but what's the sudden concern of AdSense forum or it's rules/guidelines of the program?
I admit I am curious too, since you are not an AdSense publisher, and I don't believe you are an AdWords advertiser either.
When is the last time anyone here read them cover to cover?
Jenstar answered and the only answer for the above question.
Less than a week ago :)
That is what you, Webwork, concerns about?
It's been a ritual in this forum to wait for Jenstar to read and interpret the ABSENSE T&C for us. WE're no longer need to read it. We trust her.
You tell me the rest.
<edited: ABSENSE T&C>
[edited by: FromRocky at 10:38 pm (utc) on Mar. 25, 2005]
Jenstar, you're entirely correct. I'm not yet an AdSense publisher, but I've been giving it thought and as part of the process I've been taking some time to read all the Google "guides" and a lot - I mean a lot - of the content in the AdSense forum. It was that process of reading the content that lead to the first "hot button" thread about the dearth of advertiser focus in the forum.
That same reading lead me to the present concern based on this: 1) There's evidence that enforcement may be heating up, and rightfully so in Google's own interest; and, 2) The business of letting people know "about the money" could well result in a flood o new applicants - by people for whom the money may really matter, such as work at home moms. (I know a few.)
I put 1+2 together, factored in my reading of threads where people in the past have asked about the T&C and how their inquiries were handled (mostly very good), and here we are.
I have a very real concern that people don't get hurt, just like you all. I've labored in the course of the day to state the methods and means of that possibly happening and what might be done to address it. I've presented my case for people rethinking their modus operandi. I intended to shake things up a bit, which I why I've spent the better part of the day responding.
If I'm wrongheaded then I've done a thorough job of proving it, haven't I? ;0)
If I save a single person from stepping over the line then it's worth it
Nope.
You're interfering with natural selection.
Darwinism rules.
I intended to shake things up a bit
I live in California, home of Google, things shake here enough without your assist.
Like I said, a revenue stream of thousands of dollars can make anyone worried about losing it.
I'm in that ballpark, not a UPS clubber (yet) but well on my way.
I'd be more worried if I was afraid to ask my partner, as I assume Google is my partner as such in the AdSense venture, than asking strangers who would probably prefer I didn't succeed as that would leave more money for the rest of them. These people have no vested interest in my success but Google does as much as I'm vested in the success of Google Adsense to make it a win/win for my site and Google.
For instance, I had one page I wasn't getting AdSense ads and Google said it wasn't family friendly enough. Based on their response I slapped alternate ads on that page but it didn't panic me in the least. I just wanted an answer (that I don't agree with) and moved on.
Seriously, why fear your business partner unless you are purposely doing something underhanded?
I'm not yet an AdSense publisher, but I've been giving it thought and as part of the process I've been taking some time to read all the Google "guides" and a lot - I mean a lot - of the content in the AdSense forum. It was that process of reading the content that lead to the first "hot button" thread about the dearth of advertiser focus in the forum.
However, all your reading didn't turn up the fact that was obvious to most AdSense publishers in here: We don't get any feedback on advertiser satisfaction. If you're serious about adding to the debate on this forum, why don't you join up and see what it's like on the inside for a while? You seem like a smart guy who could be a great boon to the forum. A bit of program participation would help your posts to, er, target better.
Also, both of your "hot button" threads have had the theme, "You're not doing X right!" Whether it's true or not, it's harder to take (and take seriously) coming from someone who doesn't have a stake in the program.
However, I'd prefer the response by some of the regulars like Jenstar over some 22 year old intern at Google sending me a form e-mail. You will also get a much faster response here.
If it was something drastic, I would probably e-mail Google. It comes down to a matter of who you trust more. I'd personally take the opinions of some people here over the person sending me the form e-mail from Google.
I'd personally take the opinions of some people here over the person sending me the form e-mail from Google.
If the intern at Google mislead you, you have a leg to stand on as THEY told you incorrectly.
If someone at WebmasterWorld tells you wrong, you have no recourse, we're not authoritative.
I mean upgrade is when you pay the host company and your site is clear of the host companie's adds.
You're proving my point from earlier, this is in the FAQ's
[google.com...]
See section "Competitive Ads and Services"
If you have no other ads, then you are probably safe.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
So you feel that you have the right to give out 'advice' on AdSense issues even though you have never signed up! Whats all that about?
If you were a doctor, I wouldn't let you anywhere near me. I wouldn't care how many books or 'guides' you've read until you had done the theory/practice.
I don't know anyone who starts threads on services that they haven't tried! AMAZING...
I am expected to read and understand their T&C and other policies before I sign up.
You must have a PhD, all the classic symptoms. I'd hazard a guess you've spent more time writing, reading and replying to these threads than it took me to read the T&Cs and FAQs one fine afternoon before I signed up and started raking in fist fulls of sweaty cash.
In my honest opinion, I don't see the point in your participating in the AdSense Forum if your not going to participate in the actual program. When are you planning on joining? How long does it take you to read the TOS? What don't YOU understand clearly enough? Maybe YOU should email Google... you could put something like:
"Hi Google, I've been reading the AdSense TOS for the last 12 months and I'm still trying to decide if I should apply. Even though I'm an expert on most laws and an experienced webmaster, I don't trust either myself/you or feel that I need more clarity on term 6.3b etc"
Webwork, you are obviously a very intelligent person, more so than me. BUT while you're an observer rather than a participant, then I will NOT respect your input on the AdSense Forum.
If you were a member you would not be wasting time writing posts.
You can write very well. Start focusing your time on writing content, join and start making serious dollars ;)
It's all very simple.
Look, amidst the sound and fury of this post, there are what I believe to be some very valid - and timely - issues raised. Matters for which this notion of "credentialing by membership to speak" is just silly, if not as wrongheaded . . . as my tone . . . which is still somewhat oozing out. Trust me on this: I've been reading and writing legalese for 20+ years. The T&C and related documents are pretty well written in layman's terms, but there's more than a few words and phrases in there that people should pause to reflect upon.
To summarize:
Major premise: People who ask for answers to matters obviously addressed in the T&C need to be advised to go re-read the T&C and other "guides" before worse things happen. There's evidence that they are driving without a map if they don't know the answers to the basics. There are cliffs on the road. Get the map out and read it.
Minor premise: People who ask questions pertaining to more complex issues would benefit from the advice - particularly noobs - to "run it past the AdSense team". Regularly. Repeatedly.
Peripheral matters: There are indications that the AdSense team may be taking a more aggressive stance. It may be time for everyone to take the T&C refresher course.
[edited by: Webwork at 1:56 am (utc) on Mar. 26, 2005]
OMG. Are you running this course Webwork? Where do I sign up? It will be like being back in University, all theory and no 'real world' practice...
When it comes to contracts, official rules - even TOS - read 'em, talk about 'em, discusss 'em - and when you have a question of importance - ask a professional.
A "professional?" Or the other party in the contract?
Ask Google.
Claiming Google is the only party able to speak to the contract written by their lawyers, you are actually arguing that all document intrepreters (paid and pro bono) are useless and untrustable. Can we all fire our lawyers? ;)
Trust me on this: I've been reading and writing legalese for 20+ years. The T&C and related documents are pretty well written in layman's terms, but there's more than a few words and phrases in there that people should pause to reflect upon.
We can't trust you. We're not supposed to trust people who post to this forum, remember? :)
Of course, you claim your intuition of impending changes to AdSense are based in part on the very forum and posters you tell everyone else not to trust. Can they be trusted or not? You feel pretty comfortable believing what you read here.
Arrogance doesn't bother me, but hypocrisy can always get a post out this lurker. ;)
There is a word in the practice of law, medicine and accounting for giving advice that a person relies on that results in harm: Malpractice.
and
We know this about doctors: They are licensed by the State. We know this means that they had to successfully complete many years of school, pass tests and keep abreast of changes. Even with all the oversight charlatans - pretenders - still infiltrate the practice from time to time. When caught, the usually go to jail.
Do you not think it is hypocritical to state the above and then go on giving advice, telling people not to listen to some members, and trying to cause alarm when you are not even in the program and have "0" experience with the program?
I am sure you have read a lot of books and also legal documents, but many things in life take experience in which there is no substitute for.
He sold a computer to a priest.
After 2 weeks, the priest entered his computer shop and told the very surprised salesman.
"I have now very carefully studied the Microsoft Windows EULA. Please could You examine now my EULA knowledge, because I want to start using my computer".
Tell me this: Exactly how does your “special knowledge” vitiate any of the arguments or proposals I set forth in this thread?
Claims of knowledge, meant to impress others, are not nearly as impressive as knowledge revealed.
If you’re going to proclaim yourself an expert, someone with special knowledge – presumably to convince people that my advice and proposals lack merit – I hope you don’t mind if I ask a few questions in addition to the first, most obvious one (above).
Tell me: What is the “special knowledge” of the T&C, FAQ, Program Policies and Webmaster Guidelines that is inaccessible by reading – hidden - only to be gained by experience?
What’s the hidden language, the hidden meaning that is only revealed by walking the path?
Are you saying that Google doesn't judge you by the rules, as stated, and even then - when they do - the rules don't apply as written until you've run a few miles? The rules, as stated, don't apply from day one?
Make certain your tutorial doesn’t confuse your experience with Google’s administration of their rules with the meaning of the rules that Google is prepared to apply in any future case. Remember: It’s been stated and argued here – at WW – that they are broadly worded (ambiguous) by purpose.
If you’re going to proclaim yourself an expert, someone with special knowledge – presumably to convince people that my advice and proposals lack merit – I hope you don’t mind if I ask a few questions in addition to the first, most obvious one (above).
No-one proclaimed they were an expert - you have proclaimed people are claiming to be. I do not see one post where anyone claimed to be an expert yet you keep accusing people of this.
You need to read the rules, try it out, and also listen/read to what others are stating - not trying to read between the lines, but what they are actually stating in their posts.
I am not going to take what you said personal and I'm trying not to make this personal, but sometimes man you just don't listen to what people are stating. I do remember myself and a few mods/ex mods of this board talking to you in Orlando with probably a half of a century experience between us and you scoffed at everything we told you or advice given and you didn't even have but a single page website. You blew off those that were trying to give you helpful advice and own(ed) or built 1000's of sites. You can't learn everything from reading about it and you can't blow off those more experienced than yourself.
Sometimes you (as all of us do) need to backpeddle and say "guess what, after looking at threads and posts I may have been over-the-top making the accusations I have."
