Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 188.8.131.52
I use ASP a little but it "seems" the programmers choice is PHP, probably because it has less to do with MS
Im aware that their is a difference myself, I just get a little perplexed seeing all these .net places for them and similar such languages
Here is a pretty cool non-techie difference:
Do a search for "free php bulletin board scripts" and then do the same for "free asp bulletin board scripts"; then take a look at the variety of options, attitude and professionalism of the two communities.
You can substitute "bulletin board" with any other commonly used web scripts, it should be an eye opener.
I really have no interest in learning PHP if I don't have to (get a programmer or cut & paste). I'm trying to learn XML, AS, JS, SSI, CSS and another 15 acronyms it seems. If the answer to my question is yes, can I learn just enough to utilize that capability? If not, what technology is used to feed data dynamically into templates, tables or divs?
Thank you for your help.
PHP is used to dynamically create web pages from DBs or other sources.
thanks txbakers--I know this sounds vague, but having no experience with PHP, could I learn to utilize the capability of dynamically feeding content to a template without having to learn the complete language behind PHP.
I have a problem with CFM because it won't take to Macs, and ASP because it's proprietary. PHP seems like the best option?
Your background and employer or your customers requirements really drive the decision.
1. I've had a chance to talk to a handful of programmer who'd used both. While this was a purely random . . . but not necessarily randomly distributed . . . selection, all I spoke with felt that PHP was easier, more capable, less demanding on the server, and faster.
2. PHP runs on almost everything, greatly reducing the chance of orphaned applications, if a company switches server OS choices.
3. PHP has easy to use, if not necessarily elegant, tools for connecting to a wide variety of relational database systems, including the free ones.
4. PHP penetration is likely to increase, once a debugged Apache 2.0 is running solidly on NT/2000.
5. In the short time I've been using PHP, the LAMP combo (Linux-Apache-MySQL-Perl/PHP/Python) has been growing very rapidly. I'm guessing a WAMP combo may soon also be on the rise.
6. PHP is not bug free, but the PHP community is awfully fast about fixing security bugs when they are uncovered. And, unlike MS, they don't try to hide them.
7. Some informal studies suggest that simple PHP pages are virtually as fast as their HTML conterparts. I recently turned on PHP parsing of ALL pages on my server, with no measurable increase in server load. Being able to do this without slowing things down, certainly makes some of the little things in life easier for lazy webmasters like myself.
Anyways. I had to implement .asp on my FreeBSD machine (just one page) to make it work as a Perl script (yes, I am a Perl guy) and it seems to me that server don't know which MIME header to throw.
My research shows that ASP is pretty much poor guy implementation of the best stuff from CGI. It has its limits and pretty much has no value for people who does deep programming on the web as image processing, multiple database compiling etc. etc. etc. PHP has those capabilities and Perl had them for years.
It's my understanding that if you want to become a "programmer" fast - ASP is the way to go (but don't expect to do cool stuff in the next few yeasrs).
If you're serious about programming - get real. Learn Perl, C, PHP. All M$ stuff, including the OS-es suck big time! There is always shortage of resources for any Micro$soft programs. Micro$soft looks really unprofessional on the Web and it's prooven on a daily basis by many IIS sites being hacked (140,000+ a day) while UNIX has this number about 10,000 times smaller...
I hope I didn't get carried away too far :-))
Good luck to you all!
Is PHP the same way? I have no experience with it at all, can I learn just enough to say feed data dynamically into a page without having to learn the majority of PHP?
I have programmed in both ASP and PHP. And I find PHP a more open and friendlier language.
PHP is alot more user friendly to use and to run. Firstly, it is a free download for users of *nix and m$ systems whereas, although asp comes free with all NT systems, you will have to buy an addon for it when using *nix.
Secondly, the actual language is based around ENGLISH which is more than asp. Asp is full of %%%% signs which are typical to vbscript and very annoying for programmers
Lastly, there is no doubt that php is more powerful and adaptable than ASP. Look at how many lines of code it takes for a vistor counter in PHP and then compare that to the same in ASP; the ASP version is twice as long!
To wrap it up, asp is microsoft. In other words, it's rubbish, expensive and full of bugs.
To wrap it up, asp is microsoft. In other words, it's rubbish, expensive and full of bugs.
Your biased attitude towards all things Microsoft is not representative of the world at large.
As you yourself stated, ASP comes free with IIS, as does an SMTP server and FTP server, therefore it is not "expensive."
I have been watching the mySql help mailing list, and mySql has its share of bugs and difficulties as well.
ASP uses percent signs, but only at the beginning and end of the code, which are called delimiters. Those are the characters used to indicate server side script. And you can intersperse ASP code within HTML. As a programmer, I don't find using the delimiters annoying. It's part of the syntax. To say the percent signs are annoying is to also say that the semi-colon after every statement is annoying.
There are many millions of developers who do quite well with ASP. I wouldn't call that rubbish.
- ASP, as an included part of a not-free package, is certainly more expensive than PHP, which is free however you use it.
- Obviously, "%" vs ";" is a matter of preference, but I'm guessing most people find it easier to type ";", than they do "%%". Over the course of a few thousand delimiters, this would add up, especially when you are as error-prone a typist as I. Maybe all dedicated and serious ASP coders have remapped their keyboards.
- I can't speak to the visitor counter code. Certainly, it can be done with only a few lines of PHP, but I can't do it in ASP at all, so I've no idea, personally, how long the code would be. OTOH, the guys I spoke to who had worked with both, (all were currently in NT/ASP shops) said that PHP code was more compact and easier to read.
- It's worth remembering that MS has a very substantial reputation for not-quite-but-almost-breaking implementations of their applications of which they don't approve. I'm guessing that most webmasters have discovered first hand, the 'subtle' hints left by MS, that you really, really should be running the Front Page extensions on an MS OS. I don't know that MS has done this with ASP on *nix, but I'd certainly be wary. It's hard to imagine anyone being willing to trust anything important to an MS application running on anything other than NT/2000/XP. I don't know that you'd call what MS does sabotage, but I don't know what else you'd call it, either. It's not something MS has quit doing, either: the ONLY site which consistently crashes my copy of Mozilla is MSNBC.
- I'm sorry, but I failed to follow the point of the MySQL reference. I would have assumed the comparison to be between MySQL and MS SQL Server (a very definitely NOT-FREE and NOT-INCLUDED application), so I'm not sure what relevance MySQL bugs have to a PHP vs. ASP discussion. PHP can, so I'm told, be used very effectively to make a web front-end for an MS SQL database.
- If the point was that security issues still exist in the LAMP group, I'll readily grant that the Penguinistas sometimes make it sound like LAMP has no security problems. Of course, this is not true. But, there are, in my mind two HUGE differences. First, security isses in the open source community are not concealed, so open source admins generally learn about the problems as soon as the hackers do . . . instead of later. Second, under Linux, security updates are at least an order of magnitude easier to apply. For example, I've replaced the SSHD daemon on my server, twice, via a remote SSHD connection. I've also remotely upgraded Apache, more than once, with less than 30 seconds of web downtime and ZERO server downtime. With the new GRUB boot loader, it's not only possible, it's easy to perform a remote failsafe replacement of the Linux kernel, with a single 60 - 120 second reboot. I doubt that even the most loyal MS admin would suggest that anything similar is possible with Windows. By comparison, MS seems pleased with themselves for releasing their admin tool that allows chaining multiple patches, so that it's not always necessary to reboot the server with every single patch.
set pgc = Server.CreateObject("mswc.PageCounter")
And that shows the primary advantage ASP has over other environments: the ability to call ActiveX DLLs. The DLL could be written in almost any language. They are native code, so they run fast (remember that on a web server, fast means that the bandwidth for the page is freed up to serve another page hit, hence scales better).
The mswc library comes with IIS 5.0, so you don't even have to write the library. If you want to do database access, you can use the ADO library, a free download from the Microsoft web site. If you want to do XML processing, there is the MSXML parser, another free download. I have a DLL that I wrote that controls the lights in my house from a web page. etc.
I've used both php and asp for a little while now and I think some of the php beats asp arguments are a little unfounded. I've found both to be powerful, simple and efficient. Both do have advantages over the other. Php being free is a big one for the php farm - though, believe it or not, a lot of big corps are a little scared of the 'free' part. My advice is to read up on both, and pick the one that is more accessible to you (which maybe that php is free or that you have windows server boxes at your office with IIS (ASP) ready to go).
Another thing to bear in mind is that ASP.NET is now available and I'm sure many will get to put it to use soon. ASP.NET code can be written in full VB, C#, J++ etc and is compiled on the web server, not interpreted like VBScript/JScript, so much faster. I've seen some great examples of ASP.NET work recently at a conference - it looks mighty impressive.
let's see if we can figure out some important points
>>Your background and employer or your customers requirements really drive the decision.
This is one of the keys to this whole discussion. It doesn't really matter what us programmers think. When we have a client with servers in place then we have to use what is available to us. I would rather be writing php but if my client has asp pages that's what I'm writing. The same as if they have cfm or jsp. I'm not going to rewrite a whole site just because I prefer php. If we are starting something from the ground up then it is a different story. Then it would be up to the person running the project and what resources are available to them, what languages their programmers write etc. It unfortunately doesn't always come down to the best, just the best for now.
>>A programmer .... should be able to code in any language.
Lisa hit it dead on. It doesn't matter, we'll deal with it.
We also know that any language can be written poorly and the code comparisons are all relative to the level of skill of the programmer writing it. My asp is not very efficient but it works fairly well but I couldn't compare to a full time asp coder. Though their php probably wouldn't compare to mine.
So, what have we learned? Not too much. Everyone has their preference but when it comes down to it money will make the decision. Or things like trusting a free product or ease of implimentation on existing servers etc.
Madcat, the bold portion of your question is almost a word-for-word quote for the description of cmf.zope [cmf.zope.org] -that said, don't get overly excited just yet... zope has been described as having a "cliff-like learning curve" and I think they meant straight UP, not down.
Zope questions would likely warrant a thread of their own.
learn to utilize the capability of dynamically feeding content to a template without having to learn the complete language
If that is all you really want to do, download a free copy of Dreamweaver UltraDev and work the tutorial for 30 days. By then you'll be able to understand the coding behind ASP or JSP and you won't need an editor.
ASP is more of a technology of generating dynamic pages, and it is not bounded to a specific language. As long as there's a Microsoft scripting engine for that language, it is possible to use it in ASP. Therefore, I've seen people using Perl or Python in their ASP pages. Just that most people will use either VBScript or JScript since they come with the Windows install. But everyone knows that VB and JScript are lame and crippled comparing with other big boys out there starting with 'P...' :)
And that shows the primary advantage ASP has over other environments: the ability to call ActiveX DLLs. The DLL could be written in almost any language.
Because VB and JScript are crippled, it is then necessary to write COM automation objects to take care of complicated tasks. Sometimes it is just easier to use those already-made products . However, PHP on Windows can do the same!
pgc = new COM("mswc.PageCounter");
As clean and easy (if not easier) than ASP/VB!