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Coming Soon! Expanded broad matching for greater ad coverage.

I think this is new....



2:37 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

Just saw this on my account manager...

Is this something new or something that I missed? I ran the sample matches on the 30 search terms in my campaign and showed only a couple of dozen search terms that would trigger my ads. Most of them were the kind of terms that I would like to add. In addition, I saw about 40 other terms that were suggested. I think this would be a good tool. Comments?

Tropical Island

10:35 am on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tropical_island is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

Further quote from the same Google advice notice:

"How will these affect me?
If your keywords have high CTRs, you likely won't see any changes. For keywords with lower CTRs, you may see fewer phrase or broad matches and possibly fewer clicks due to higher performance requirements for broad and phrase keyword matches."

This also has relaxed me considerably. We will attempt to neagative word anything we don't want and the lower CTR on search terms that are really not applicable to us will eliminate the rest.


10:48 am on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

Shaadi, you obviously have not understood the new google system properly.

Pen and Pens are proably the same (which is what Overture is doing).
Pen and Pencil are different altogether (which is what Google is doing, plus what Overture do).

Thousands of keywords, now I have to go and find a huge new chunk of negatives again, then add them to every advert group in every campaign...

I agree that in one way it is great, but the whole relevancy issue may be pushed to one side in order for them to make more money - they need to be very careful what phrases they are targetting. In their example page I typed in a three word keyphrase and it generated a huge list of what it would match against - one was a three word search, not one of the words were the same as what I had typed in and some were clearly not relevant at all.


10:58 am on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

one was a three word search, not one of the words were the same as what I had typed in and some were clearly not relevant at all.

PCInk, it that case use exact match :(

I am sorry to say but this will differ from industry to industry...some sites will benefit (ones which have few negatives) and other will suffer...


1:06 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

So what you are saying is use exact match or phrase match only?

I mean, why when I type in 'Canon' does it suggest that my ad will be displayed for 'Canon Cameras'? I can see the link - but I don't see the relevance - I don't sell cameras!

Google can destroy their whole system and user confidence when customers realise that the free listings become more relevant than the paid for listings!

It is a good idea. But the implementation of it seems to need a bit more work, I hope they consider this before it goes live.


4:47 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

PCInk, I think you're confusing yourself a bit.

Pen and Pens are probably the same
Pen and Pencil are different altogether

This assumption is OK. :)

when I type in 'Canon' does it suggest that my ad will be displayed for 'Canon Cameras'.... I don't sell cameras!

If you're broad matching "canon" at the moment, you will be shown for "canon cameras" under the current system unless cameras is one of your negative keywords. So, no change there.

Where it *will* affect you is when your ad ends up showing for any of the following expanded broad match terms:

cannon powershot bjc eos ixus g2 copier s45 b&h canoscan s40 4300 a40 lbp s30 compactflash

To still show up for "canon", but not any of the above terms, you'll need to turn your single word term into a single word phrase match. And add your negative keywords as usual.

I think that the expanded broad match is going to have far-reaching consequences for those that don't spend time learning the system. And it will end up costing many people lots of money!

From G's point of view, I can see where they're coming from. It will be much easier for new users to create a campaign & spend money quickly, but for maximum ROI & *highly targeted* traffic, most users will need expert help at some point (or they'll end up calling it quits after blowing their budget).


5:05 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

This broad match meme seems to be moving its way all through Google. It's definitely in AdSense. Under certain circumstances you can currently see it in AdWords. It's going to be all over AdWords next week. It also seems that Google results now occasionally blur the distinction between singular and plural.

Tropical Island

6:09 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tropical_island is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

I spent three hours this morning going through about 80% of my ad groups adding negative words. In a way I'm glad I was forced into this as the Google tool appears to be working much better than it used to and I've now added many new negative words. Now to the Over tool to get the rest.

I know this is off topic however it shows just how poor the Over tools are now in that they only allow 15 negative words per search term. Try figuring out what to do when your region has the same name as a popular drink + all the sex terms. One ad group (29 related terms) in Google has 309 valid negative words.


10:01 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

I have two ad groups for these keyword phrases: red widget and red widgets. Expanded broad matches show for red widget also red widgets. Which ads will display for red widgets?

How can I added negative keyword phrase? Simply -red widgets?



10:57 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

>Which ads will display for red widgets?

I would imagine it will be the one with the highest CTR & bid combination, but we'll need to wait until the extended broad match is live before this can be answered with certainty.

>How can I add negative keyword phrase?

Adding -widgets to the first group, & -widget to the second should work.


4:17 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

I'm in favor of, but a bit worried, about broad matching. I have two comments:

1) The broad matches are very broad. I'd be more comfortable enabling simple word stemming (plurals, endings, etc), rather than the broad match which can easily find totally unrelated words. Check out the broad match for the word "appliance"; not only does it get "maytag", it finds "netapp" (network appliance)! Or check "volunteer" and get "vrijwilligerswerk".

Or, worst of all, type in "Somerville MA" and get a broad match to "Somerville NJ".

2) What I really want is the "OR" operator, not broad match. Rather than:

appliance repair Newton MA
appliance repair Newton Massachusetts
dryer repair Newton MA
dryer repiar Newton Massachusetts
I'd like to write:
appliance¦dryer repair Newton MA¦Massachusetts

3) And I often want to match on two or more SEPARATE phrases, which google has never allowed:
dryer repair "Somerville MA"
"bike path" "Boston Massachusetts"


8:53 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

Ok, I'll give a specific that just does not work:

"Printer ink"

Google seems to think that a company that sells ink (we do not sell printers at all), would also like to appear for:

"How inkjet printers work"
"Lexmark driver"
"inkjet printers review"
"Lexmark printers"
"HP printer ink refill"

and that we would like to pay them for this.

I hope they will know that I do not do reviews, whether I supply Lexmark items they are advertising me for and if I do HP ink refills (perhaps I only do originals?).

Can you see why it is a good system, but needs a little work before going live? Some of the terms above are applicable to me, but not to some of my competitors. Some are applicable to me, but my competitors will not want to pay for these terms. I beleive by looking at the page(s) held in the cache of particular sites, they will be able to filter the results much better.

I would be annoyed to type in "Lexmark driver" to see a list of AdWords, none of which sell or supply the driver for these printers, because it is full of people selling cartridges...this is my point - I would go to the free listings. And my confidence in AdWords begins to disintegrate - do this three or four times and AdWords will begin to be mentally blocked by me - if I want irrelevant results, I would use AltaVista.


9:06 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

roitracker agree with you. Very nicely explained :)


2:35 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Greetings and gidday from Downunder folks,

OK ... I'm confused!



<edit - 1:35pm> NB: just re-read the "Coming Soon", where they say "as part of our broad keyword matching option". looking at this I presume this means it applies ONLY to broad match selections.

It would make it easier if they clarified it as such in the notice though ... for the likes of me, y'know ... somethng like "phrase matched and exact matched terms will NOT be affected."

might reduce the confusion a bit ... well ... mine anyway ; # - }

<edit again> OK ... I'm so abashed, I'm deleting most of the original post! <grin>


4:38 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

I believe that totally unrelated keywords are not the problem because they will get disabled due to low CTR. Also some keywords are very related, almost synonims.

But then you have partial related keywords that will trigger user curiosity and get some CTR because they are somewhat related, but since they are not very targeted, conversion rate for sales will be very low, and we will be paying the same for that poor quality traffic in many cases.

In some cases it will be like adsense, but this time we will be different, because most of us do not get big traffic from adsense to easily note conversion rate from adsense, but the new broadmatch could drive huge traffic...


8:56 pm on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

The entire idea of expanded broad matching is horrible IMO. It forces us to purchase an Adword we did not order, unless we specifically say "no" to every single keyword that Google generates.

No other industry can afford to operate in that manner. Imagine purchasing a flight to France, and ending up in Italy instead. "Close enough" would say the travel agent. "You did not specifically ask not to go to Italy."

Yet this is the way Expanded Broad Matching works. Very disappointing from much loved Google.


12:15 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Does anyone know when this is going to be rolled out?

I thought it was going to be effective yesterday.


4:37 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

I love broad match how it is now. The fact that we look for state specific terms, with our major keywords, lets us target an entire state for each city without having to run 50 phrases for each city we can think of, and forget the one's we forget...

But now, because we target some states/cities that happen to have the same name overseas, our ads will appear for people wishing to travel to these cities, which is totally unrelated to our business.

After looking through our top 50 keywords for broadmatch, there was not a single new term we'd be shown for on G that I wanted, out of the 300+ terms G suggested.

They should introduce a way to show broad match as it currently is, or be able to choose extended broad match - that way people have a choice of how they want to advertise.


7:06 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

100% agreed, eWhisper. Not to mention that this Expanded Broad Matching is totally messed up IMO. None of the Expanded terms work for me. Worst, I see that one of the Expanded terms added by Google is actually a competitor's company name! I thought that it was unacceptable to use a competitor's company name to promote your own website... yet Google does it for you by default!


7:34 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Update: Looks like it's just about to go live!

The keyword tool will show all expanded broad matches, so you don't need to worry about expanded match keywords not on the list.

The CTR of expanded broad matches *won't* affect the CTR that Google uses to calculate your ad position or minimum CTR requirement. However, broad & phrase match minimums will soon require a minimum CTR of 1%, irrespective of expanded matching.

The CPC on expanded matches will not be greater than your specified maximum CPC. However, your average CPC when using broad match will inevitably increase (since you will be competing with more advertisers at higher CPCs).


3:10 pm on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

I see that one of the Expanded terms added by Google is actually a competitor's company name! I thought that it was unacceptable to use a competitor's company name to promote your own website... yet Google does it for you by default!

According to G, if the company name isn't copywrited, you can bid on it, if it is copywrited, then you can't.

Although, even if it is copywrited, you can bid on it, and then the company that has it copywrited must contact G, initiate the legal stuff, then once that's taken care of, you can't bid on it any longer.


10:29 am on Oct 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Thanks for all your comments!

A. Yes, I'm confused. (although, your comments have helped)
B. Yes, I'm loosing confidence in Google

I just started using 3 Weeks ago, added a couple of 1000 well thought through and researched keywords, split them up into different groups, added negatives and got my CTR up from 0.4 to 3.6. I had really good CTRs of 6-30% for my most important keywords.
Now, all that work seems to have been in vain, hasn't it?

My CTR is down to ca. 1%, and moreover my average position has gone down as well. That doesn't fit with Googles announcement that the CTR from expanded broad matched terms doesn affect the CTR used from ranking.

The introduction has totally messed up my campaign. Many groups are falling below 0.5%, although I'm using loads of negative keywords.

What interest me: If I use the Keyword Tool, it shows me exactly the same results as before the introduction of EBM.
So how can I properly react?

OK. The real question is: Can we do anything against it?
Should we start bombarding Google with complaints?
Should we disable our AdGroups/Campaigns for a while? (organised and synchronised) (Are we enough to make an impact?)
It seems that I'm not the only one that doesn't like the Expanded option. Google probably won't stop it voluntarily as they are probably making more money from it; unless we TELL them that the broad base of small to medium-sized advertisers doesn't like it.

Or am I too extreme? :)


12:47 pm on Oct 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

They may stop it voluntarily when customers slow in their clicking on the adverts (after they lose confidence in them). However, once many people have lost confidence, Google are going to have to work hard to get the customers confidence back. And I mean hard. AltaVista has worked hard to improve their site, for what? They lost customer confidence through irrelevant results and now Google may do the same.

Just imagine in a few years time: "Optimise for Google? Why bother, I can't remember the last time they sent me a visitor. You should be optimising for the important engines such as...."

You may smile now, but it could happen! The relevance of free listings has dropped in the standard quality and now AdWords has followed suit.


5:01 pm on Oct 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

IMO, sounds like everyone's now in *serious* need of an effective keyword portfolio management solution that can manage these large keyword campaigns automatically and in light of the new Google broadmatch features.
You all are voicing a problem, which boils down to 'My ROI has just gone through the floor'. I would bet, however, that not even 5% of you are managing, in real-time, all of your bids in relation to the real-time ROI for not only each keyword, but the entire portfolio of keywords.

Not wasting a single nickel is what you must all do, and managing your portfolios in real-time (and in relation to instantaneous keyword-level ROI) is the only way to get there.

You need tools. Humans cannot possibly do all the math involved to make the right keyword investment decisions. You *can* and should define your portfolio-level ROI goals, but don't think you can trade on Wall Street with Excel spreadsheets and slide rulers.

I don't mean to be rough, but many of you are now trading multi-million dollar keyword portfolios, and you need to invest in portfolio management systems or you will be out-traded by those who do.


6:50 pm on Oct 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

I have an ad that says something like


I bid on the merchandise type item that I sell, and I do not bid on some item that are somewhat related to the merchandise type but I do not sell.

In internal traffic repot I realized that expanded broad match was expanded merchandise-type word to an specific item related that I do not sell, the ad ctr for that word had quite high ctr because ad description was related with the keyword the user searched, the user think that i sell the item, but I do not, so I was having big traffic that could never convert to sale.


7:23 pm on Oct 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

To be fair...

I checked on another campaign the expanded matches, and then I converted those matches to specific keywords with separate tracking, and they are converting sales, so broad match gave me additional revenue generating keywords also!



8:08 pm on Oct 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Our shop has some brands that the competitors don't have.
But now, because of Expanded broad matching,
their AdWords appear above our AdWords, when someone searches for the brand name. It will be a very frustrating search experience for the customers looking for "Brand-X", they have to go in and out of ten different shops, all showing up for "Brand-X", but no one can deliver. Our AdWords is the only one having the keyword "Brand-X" in the headline and we still have very a good CTR, but the traffic is down to half of what it used to be, in correlation there is a drop in position from 2.3 to 4.5.

Since the conversion-rate did not improve, so half traffic means half turn-over.

I wonder how Google could fix this problem: Unless all our competitors, who do don't sell "Brand-X", put "Brand-X" into the negative keyword list, the CTR for all of us goes up, Google earns more but shop-owners and their customers are both frustated. Most of our competitors may not even be aware that their Ad now shows up for "Brand-x". Without a very carefull analysis of the log-files and matching the referrer with the conversion-rate they will never come up with the negative keyword list long enough to give them the same ROI as before the introduction of Expanded broad matching.


10:42 pm on Oct 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

I wonder how Google could fix this problem

They could revert to the "old" broad match system. :)

Is there anyone out there (other than Google) that has actually benefited from the extended broad match "feature"?

<added>shorebreak, your spam is not welcome here</added>

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