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Seems like if they do explain the steps, they're giving a 'lesson' - which could lead the customer to just try it on their own - if they don't describe the steps, then is it a leap of faith to believe they'll achieve results?
I have found that some clients ask a LOT of questions. It doesn't really bother me as I can understand why and have no problems answering the questions. I'm not generally too worried about giving away "secrets" as I have found that regardless how much the client knows, (1)I can always get better results and (2) most good clients would rather hire someone who knows what they are doing than try and do it themselves.
The less the client knows, the less confused they will be. Most clients are concerned with one thing, ROI. Some are concerned with how that ROI will be achieved and usually a basic outline of services is sufficient. Ever watch a clients face when you start discussing the details and technical aspects of search engine marketing? It's priceless! ;)
If a client wants more explanation than that, then you move into consulting mode and charge accordingly.
Ever watch a clients face when you start discussing the details and technical aspects of search engine marketing? It's priceless!
Yes! It is! So true. That's always a favorite moment in any meeting.
To get back to the original question, it does depend on the SEO company. We've found that the more the client knows, the more they understand just how much they really need to know to do it themselves. In other words, start them up the learning curve and they quickly see how steep it is. And that's when they decide it's better to have someone else taking care of things.
But this is very rare and I find that most clients don't want to know - which is ok too :)
I would say in answer to the original question that most seos do not include training or 'trade secrets' in the service provided.
...especially in the beginning when negotiations are taking place.
This is a key point. If someone pumps me for information at this stage, I generally run the other way.
Otherwise, I'm happy to give lessons as long as I'm on an hourly basis. I would charge a premium for giving tutorials.
Funny thing... I tend to be much more generous on WebmasterWorld than I would be, say, with a developer on a project who's trying to pick my brain. On WebmasterWorld, I figure that what goes around comes around. Lots of developers think that if they watch you optimize one site, they can do all the others themselves.
I once had a guy who wanted me to do one page for him to see if he "liked working with me," and he zoned out when I started talking about search term competitivity research in relation to site structure, internal linking, etc, and why one page wasn't the way to start.
This is a key point. If someone pumps me for information at this stage, I generally run the other way.
Same here, I would run a mile.
In terms of giving away secrets - I make it clear exactly what I'll be doing and, depending on the technical competency of the client and their level of interest, I'll elaborate.
I have to be careful with this however - yesterday, during a phone conversation, a long term client of mine with whom I have a really good relationship interrupted me to say: "I feel obliged to let you know that my eyes are glazing over and turning to the ceiling here"... :)
He just wants bullet points ... and results.
[edited by: buckworks at 1:04 am (utc) on June 17, 2004]
I imagine people with money tend to care more about results than the little details involved in SEO'ing and prefer to invest their time doing business development.
long term client of mine with whom I have a really good relationship interrupted me to say: "I feel obliged to let you know that my eyes are glazing over and turning to the ceiling here"...
LOL! :)
I find myself beginning a lot of conversations these days with "Stop me if I get too geeky on you." It seems to work as a fair warning.
We all do market our own sites, but what do we get from it?
So it's kind of a win or loose situation.
However, if we do it for clients, what do we get?
I personally do a bit of both, works well - but you should never let your personal sites interfere with your client projects. :)
Sid
a fixed amount from clients..but you have to have results..? no results, no money?
while we're at it, how do you measure wether or not you succeeded? it would seem to me SEO'ing is a continuous tweaking of settings, an unending battle against other sites.
...for anyone who does SEO professionally for clients, why not turn that skill to market your own sites?
Well, that would be starting a new business from the ground up... not marketing one that already exists on the web. There's a huge difference in talents, interests, and effort involved.
Just because I can market a software company doesn't mean I can create, sell, or support software, or even run a company. And I may not want to become a merchant either.
I think there have been a bunch of discussions about this on the board.
but you should never let your personal sites interfere with your client projects.
Vice versa ;-)
true, but I think you should always put your clients' projects first - as you are basically under no-pressure with your own ones, but you're client can get you fired if you're not doing as contracted (ie. imagine giving the lame excuse, "Woops! I forgot, as I was busy with one of my sites. Please give me a day or two.").
I agree with Robert too, just because you can market something doesn't mean you can do everything - one more reason us SEO's like clients more ;)
Sid
When did me (or Robert) say an SEO can't create such a site? Of course we can, we can create tons of sites like that - but would it be successful?
I wasn't talking about those type of minor sites with AdSense installed, which get you hardly $100 a month. I'm talking about those ones which get you a lot - where after, you never need to work for clients again.
Sid
For some, stability is probably the answer to the question of why they would take on clients. I just took my first client, but was very selective and so far so good.
I really don't understand how a SEO wouldn't be able to build a credit card information site with affiliate links? not that difficult ..?
And I don't understand why an SEO would want to. :)
I really don't understand how a SEO wouldn't be able to build a credit card information site with affiliate links? not that difficult ..?And I don't understand why an SEO would want to. :)
Come on, pleeker, isn't that something you've always dreamed of doing. ;)
rfung - There are different styles of SEO, and I think different SEOs would view this task very differently. Beyond the content, but related to it, there's a question of getting links.
This process can range from the hardware approach... using machine-generated pages on multiple domains and an artificial linking network at one end of the spectrum... to a having a site with really solid information and visitor value at the other.
When there's a company with an existing product and customer base thrown in, you would (or should) tend towards the solid information and visitor value. It's a better fit. The domain is not expendable, and there's often a base and context of sites already in place that might link to the company's site.
With something like a credit card info site, either you're going to have to create a darned good info resource out of nothing to really compete, and that's going to take time and effort... or you are going to have to fake the community that might link to you, and that's not easy either.
These take very different kinds of mindsets. It's good for an SEO to know both, but not every SEO does both. Depends also on your personality and whether you like longterm or quicky results, and what gives you satisfaction.
Building a really good affiliate site takes guts and/or devotion, because it is building something out of nothing... almost like starting a magazine and hoping you can do well enough to survive on the advertising.
I won't accept more work if it will interfere with that time or cause me to perform poorly with other clients' projects.
If the opportunity is very golden though, I'll just etch out some time from my personal project time.
