Re-directs and no frames tags

Are most SEs ok with these and if so why?!

[surfgatinho]

Have noticed there are quite a few sites out there which either use a re-direct page full of content or a noframes tag with content.
This doesn't seem to be completely honest and considering some of the things SEs penalise for this seems quite lenient.
Are these practices not frowned upon. And what about hidden layers?

[AWildman]

I for one use the noframes for one site that makes use of iframes. In the noframes, I simply say that they aren't seeing the site as they should cause their browser doesn't support iframes. If SEs started punishing for noframes, they'd have to make sure that the page actually did not have any form of frame.