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So now I'm drawing to a close on hiring an SEO person to optimize my website - which operates in an industry which is very competitive on the web.
The best candidates all want to perform "tricks", and say that I cannot expect success without them. Mainly, these tricks involve setting up feeder domains or employing various methods to stuff hidden keywords into pages.
I've posted earlier here on how fed up I am with the notion that we all have to jump through fundamentally ridiculous hoops in order to stroke Google's erogenous zones.
Now, three questions for the experts and the philosophers out there:
1. Is it POSSIBLE - or is it IMPOSSIBLE - to get good rankings in Google using purely Google-approved optimization techniques, when so many others are not?
2. In a world where all the winners are doing it, is it morally acceptible to do things we know Google disapproves of - in order to get a great site to the top of the rankings?
3. If it's NOT possible to rank well with approved techniques, and if it's NOT morally acceptible to abuse Google's rules, then does it make the worl a better or a worse palce when good businesses go to the wall, whilst those prepared to break the rules (which are not laws, and which in any case, reflect the fundamentally SILLY state of affairs) succeed?
Yes - I'm weakening, and probably about to hire someone to tickle in style sheets, hidden DIVs, keyword-stuffed domains and other sculduggery in order to get my site back out of cyber-oblivion and back into good rankings, where my customers will again - find us, and be delighted with our outstandingly good service to them.
Comments - especially from GoogleGuy - are very welcome.
Chris
1. Is it POSSIBLE - or is it IMPOSSIBLE - to get good rankings in Google using purely Google-approved optimization techniques, when so many others are not?
Depends. On some keywords I have no doubt that it is POSSIBLE. On competitive keywords or anything slightly business related in which there is big money at stake it is IMPOSSIBLE.
2. In a world where all the winners are doing it, is it morally acceptible to do things we know Google disapproves of - in order to get a great site to the top of the rankings?
If performance enhancing drugs were not banned by the rules of participation in professional athletics, every athlete would be using them. Otherwise there would be no point in competing.
Ditto competitive search terms.
However, the big search players have given us alternatives - paid for position and PPC. SEO costs you money, so does paid for advertising. Do the maths, weigh up the risks and take your pick.
Good luck!
Suppose the ranking is now #17 and you get almost no hits. You do the tricks, go to position #4 and get a lot of visitors for 2 months. The algorithm or some competitor found the tricks and your site is banned. Never to show up again in the SERPs. Do you really like a scenario where you have to start a new domain every so many months?
Maybe it is the only way for a very competitive market (finance, adult, real estate, etc.), but its up to you to decide.
Go to each web page > select edit from menu bar > "select all" and paste into a word processor. If for example the first word that appear are say: > HELP! > Contact Us > Departments > and your site isn't really about > HELP! > Contact Us > Departments > then your site/page(s) are poorly targeted.
2. if you can't get back to the mainpage from almost all other web pages your web site isn't link savvy. Normally the mainpage connects the hierarchy of the site together and from a "link" perspective the most important webpage of the site. We generally target our best (more competitive) keywords on this page, however without the weight, and relevancy that can be produced from all those links > we can't compete > our mainpage "isn't really connected".
3. hidden text and hidden links at the bottom of the page (or any where else) is obviously not a good practices and why sites get penalized. Making these visible > won't get you penaltize, but we often believe they help a great deal to develop ranked position. Garbage stuff on your webpages is garbage stuff and don't help at all. GG (and Google guidelines) continues to advocates "design for the visitor" > to do this you really need to think about "what links are important to have on this page" and remove the rest.
4. Continued - Design for the visitor - A web site is an extension of your business as such, you normally have one shot to make a first "good" impression. Although there are many exceptions - if your site looks like a sham > the impression of the business is the same. Web design is Marketing, and the website is the single most profound marketing tool a business has at their disposal.
A amateurism looking website can sell > there is no doubt in that > but if it's not selling and you want sales from it, you really need to take a long look and objective look > the design could very well be your problem (point #3 is included in this).
5. Everyone knowns that "incoming links" are important particularly with Google. A link is a vote that your site is "worthy" of visitors. The harsh reality > no votes > no worthiness.
It can often be a difficult task to request links - and it does take a great deal of effort > some decide it's far easier to setup a bunch of domains to produce votes and self appointed worthiness.
Pure Rubbish!All you need is a little innovations.
5a. Something like Link to this page. <a href="#" onclick="window.open('../link/add.html', 'Title', 'toolbar=no,resizable=no,scrollbars=no,width=400,height=300,left=0,top=0');" title="page title">Page Title</a>
... and adding the URL string and instructions to adding a link to their web page. Many people who have websites don't have a bloody clue how to add a link but may still want to, if they knew how. Also since we all know link exchanges help, it's obvious that the surfers looking for sites that are "easier" to develop a link exchange > when you show a link program they'll jump at it.
5b. Request a Link on this page.
<a href="mailto:linkrequest@domain.com?subject=Link %20Request&body=Please %20review %20our %20web %20presence %20for %20inclusion %20into %20Widget%20Worlds %20link %20exchange %20section %20on %20page %20http://www.widgetworld.com/sub-directory/page.html %20 %20Our %20web %20site %20URL%20is">Page Title</a>
Again it can often be a difficult task to request links - helping this process out ain't gonna hurt. All that wierd code > simply fills in the email subject line and the body message so the visitor only needs to add their URL.
5c. PDF - Buyers Guide, eBooks (on a topic of interest) or anything that will capture someones interest to download. Go one step further give people a reason to post these PDFs on their websites.
Most often vendors get products real cheap or have something that is of low cost to them and of great value to others (normally the potential buyer or a visitor to your site). Look to the end goal - links develop exposure and exposure develop sales. Free is power and if your business is in tough times you really need to look close at intangibles to motive anothers for their assistance.
Many people will not add 100 links to you but they will add 100 links to themselves (pointing to your PDF) and as the PDF contains say 100 links to specific products or informative pages > you just got 100 links to your site (from only one site owner).
Hope this helps, even if there is a big language barrier between us ;).
Oh BTW... purely Google-approved optimization techniques.
[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 3:15 pm (utc) on June 14, 2003]
[edit reason] fixed sidescroll - delete spaced before %20 to use that link ;-) [/edit]
In the broader picture , how you run your website is a reflection on how you run the rest of your business. You describe a slippery slope, that needs to be carefully considered.
PageOneResults is very wise... your "Google approved" bible is there. Read it... learn from it... and you can't go wrong.
<added>Thought I should clarify one previous point.
A professional website vs an amateurism site.
A professional website is NOT bells and whistles... Flash, Shockwave, cool graphics, 3D effects or audiovisual compontents. A profession website has a clear thoughtout plan, a mission, and goals. Sometime this is back by extensive market research which shows evidence that the website will engage the market it targets.
A profesional website generates the desire to buy or at least the desire to enquire. Trust and credibility usually drives this process.
An amateurism website doesn't necessarily need any of this > usually because the website owner already has established trust and credibility, gains customers through other mediums or the demand for the product or services is exceptional high with little competition.
The keynote for search engine marketing > Almost always "first time visitors"... you start with zero trust, no credibility, thus a great deal of "preceived professionalism is needed.</added>
PageOneResults is very wise... your "Google approved" bible is there. Read it... learn from it... and you can't go wrong.
Surely it doesn't matter how "Google Approved" your website is as a self-contained unit; Chris is talking about off-site SEO tricks that he believes are the only way to dominate SERP as a direct result of how Page Rank works, and the extent to which it has been abused within competitive keywords.
I think he is correct, if dominating SERP is your chosen method of paying for advertising (through your SEO costs).
I personally have chosen to ignore SERP (since they are becoming so messed up these days) and concentrate entirely on PPC and other forms of paid advertising; but that is my choice - there are of course many ways to achieve the same result.
As a business person you have to weigh the pro's and cons of every option available to you.
As a business person you have to weigh the pro's and cons of every option available to you.
agree dmorison - but part of that pro's and con's rational is preceived risk.
Chris wrote: The best candidates all want to perform "tricks", and say that I cannot expect success without them. Mainly, these tricks involve setting up feeder domains or employing various methods to stuff hidden keywords into pages.
fathom wrote: It can often be a difficult task to request links - and it does take a great deal of effort > some decide it's far easier to setup a bunch of domains to produce votes and self appointed worthiness.
Surely it does matter how "Google Approved" your website is > if the risk of the above is too great.
[edited by: fathom at 4:15 pm (utc) on June 14, 2003]
PageOneResults is very wise...
Hehehe, thanks for your confidence fathom, sometimes I wonder how wise I really am! ;)
I promised myself years ago that I would stay away from highly competitive industries. Why? Because I saw what everyone was doing and I just don't have the time, nor the guts to try and circumvent the system. The last thing I need is any one of my clients finding themselves blacklisted.
I've been able to achieve stellar results using traditional SEM. I do follow the W3C guidelines based on my understanding of them. I also spend an hour or two here every single day. Being in tune with today's marketing strategies is a big plus for my clients and myself.
Years ago I experimented with various strategies. They worked! Those same strategies today are walking the edge. If longevitiy is not a factor in your campaign, then walking the edge may be the way to go for some.
I'm a firm believer that if you design based on the W3C guidelines, you can do very well. A few links from high quality sites and you can do extremely well. I'd rather have 5 links from high quality sites than 50 links from low quality sites, this is specific to Google.
PPC, CPC, PFI are all givens in today's SEM. If you want to jumpstart your campaign, you will take advantage of these programs.
Many who come online want everything right now. Unfortunately that may cost a small chunk of change. If time permits, just follow the 12 month plan from Brett and within a year, you'll have all the quality traffic you can desire. Actually, I've found that you can do that in less than 3 months if you really try hard. ;)
e.g. "email" (not the actual term)
His site is not ready for an overhaul for other reasons, but his interim solution is to use Adwords. While many visitors use phrases, there is a significant number that uses a single word, but given the near-stop-word nature of this term, the Adword is unlikely to reach the minimum CTR and will get disabled.
That's the environment I am in. When he is ready for the architectural makeover, I intend to use content to optimise various pages and change the site from a product focus to a solution focus. This not only educates the prospect about potential uses for the product but also loads the page with the term without resorting to spammy techniques. I have a long background of marcomms and technical writing/editing and I prefer to use the English language as my tool instead of finding a trick.
Morals don't come into the equation in your case because business is about survival and there are no prizes for moral companies (except for "green" ones). The SE's only raison d'etre is to make money from advertisers. Your understanding of morals is another competitor's definition of marketing brilliance.
Your only consideration is risk assessment. If the SE bans you, what is the Plan B? You could set up 10 disposable sites and get 10 different eLancers to build them for you and host them. Find 10 more editors at eLance and get them to optmise each one differently, adding unique content. Give five of them to five different Black Hat SEOs for additional treatment and yes, some of these could outrank the dumber competitors whose only tool is the spammy doorway or hidden content.
- Ash
5c. PDF - Buyers Guide, eBooks (on a topic of interest) or anything that will capture someones interest to download. Go one step further give people a reason to post these PDFs on their websites.
<snip>
Many people will not add 100 links to you but they will add 100 links to themselves (pointing to your PDF) and as the PDF contains say 100 links to specific products or informative pages > you just got 100 links to your site (from only one site owner).
I am pretty sure I get the gist, but can you give a specific example in broad terms?
In the example above if the PDF document had 100 links to sources of information of interest to the user and somehow relevant to the website it originates from- just what sort of sites would be linked to from the PDF?
I suppose if one sells 'widgets' they could link out to every manufacturer there is and other informational sites? Perhaps the manufacturer would then list you as a dealer on their site?
I can't see how they'd stick the PDF on their page that links out to thier competition.
I was thinking along the lines of informational/FAQ based content with largely generic, but useful information. Put a link to one's own site in the header and footer of each page.
Offer the Free e-Book (it's a $19.95 value!) <G> and let folks know it's OK to post on thier own website.
BTW, how do links from PDF's get weighed by Google? Meaning, would they count the same as the page it's downloaded from? Do links inside PDF's pass on the PR or are they purely traffic building links?
I've been a member here about 1/2 a year and just came across the PDF link idea about a week ago. :)
The PDF idea is ideal for hobby sites (just thinking off the top of my head) as one could create a tutorial on "Example of building a Widget" and provide good content and offer up useful links on the PDF like where to buy the pieces for the widget and so on.
Of course, a manufacturer could create a fictional hobby site with a PDF that just illustrated their products in a shining light.
If you sell those widgets, you could then create a dozen simple hobby sites with unique content and unique eBooks on different ways to use the widgets you sell. ;)
Hey, it can still be useful if it's fictional...and therefore, honest SEO. :)
Regards,
AW
BTW, how do links from PDF's get weighed by Google? Meaning, would they count the same as the page it's downloaded from? Do links inside PDF's pass on the PR or are they purely traffic building links?
Why would a link from a PDF or MS Word document be treated different than a link from a HTML page? They can show up as backlink, so why shouldn't they pass PR?
For those sceptical that links in PDF's are followed by Google, I will give 2 examples:
1. Try this search [google.com] for links to the DMCA page at the United States Copyright Office Web site. At almost the last location in the SERP you can see a PDF.
2. Try this search [google.com] for links to the FY2004 budget at the Whitehouse site. At almost the last location in the SERP you can see a PDF.
The hint of fathom to give away a PDF full with links will work, but only if the content is unique. If you have the a PDF on your own site, and the same PDF can be found on 20 other sites, Google will ignore all but one for the simple reason of unique content.
If time permits, just follow the 12 month plan from Brett and within a year, you'll have all the quality traffic you can desire. Actually, I've found that you can do that in less than 3 months if you really try hard. ;)
3 Months? - Maybe if your key phrase was "Dragon Grooming" or something totally obscure like that, but we are talking hyper-competitive keywords here.
Brett's Google in 12 months post [webmasterworld.com] is well over 12 months old, and by definition based on experience 12 months prior to that - in February 2001. It may have worked back then, and the post is still valid as regards developing a quality site that is search engine friendly, but I don't think that is going to get you anything remotely close to #1 SERP without a whif of off-site SEO. Not in 12 months and certainly not in 3.
By the way, as i've said in a previous post I am not condoning SEO in any way at all, but people here seem to be telling Chris that if he creates a good search engine friendly site and then sits back and watches he will have good SERP in due time. He won't.
The concensus seems to be that it is NOT POSSIBLE to get good rankings in Google for competitive phrases using approved methods. GOOGLE - PLEASE NOTE (yeah, right). This is the world you have taken a large hand in creating and perpetuating.
Fathom - thanks for your tips. We already do most of them except for the PDF thing. And I've updated our site builder to include key words at the very top of the page. This is PRECISELY the kind of fundamentally idiotic hoop I was talking about - which we all need to jump through. Why put keywords above the navigation bar - because it's an intrisically great idea? NO - BECAUSE GOOGLE IS QUITE EXTRAORDINARILY STUPID, AND MAKES THE RULES. It's just DUMB. Truly smelly stuff.
I will make a new site containing a subset of our products. And I hope and expect that this site will not be as difficult to rank highly.
jbinbpt - I hope you're right that Google will eventually reward the good guys over the bad - but that's not been the case over the two years I've just lived through, in which my income evapourated. "jam tommorrow" is wearing more than a little thin.
PPC, CPC, PFI - oh, the sinking feeling. pageoneresults - I guess you may be right, and thanks for the contribution. But I invested lots of time in Google's adwords with no success, even with highly specific targetted phrases.
Thanks again,
Chris
The concensus seems to be that it is NOT POSSIBLE to get good rankings in Google for competitive phrases using approved methods.
I'm not sure I agree. There are phrases, competitive phrases and insanely competitive phrases.
Google works well for the first with little SEO, not so bad for the second with a lot of clean SEO, and probably isn't your best source for the traffic anyway for the third given the insane amount of competition for those 10 (or 20) top spots.
A lot of the insanely competitive sites get washed away each time a new Google spam filter comes in. Problem is, there are insanely dedicated pros out there finding the next chink in Google's armour.
Another problem is that a lot of the competitive sites that could do well with clean SEO get tempted to the dark side and vanish too. They could have stayed clean and got the same rankings.
I am with Victor on this one.
Interestingly, I did have an email last week from a client (in Victor's category 2) complaining that he was #4 on Google for his keywords and that another of my clients ranked higher. My reply was somewhat short and too the point!
In answer to your questions:
1. Definitely. If you put the time and effort in, you can do it. I've never seen a keyphrase (two words or more) that I couldn't get in the top 10 - even for BIG money industries like online gambling. Granted, individual words can sometimes be impossible though.
2. In my opiniion, absolutely! I don't bear a grudge against anyone who outperforms me in the SERPs using whatever technique. In fact, I admire people who have the guts and the ability to get away with it. If I notice something fishy though, I still send in the spam reports. After all, I want to beat these people in the SERPs too.
I actually find it much easier to get good results without resorting to less ethical techniques. Even though SEs are becoming more automated each day, they are highly effective at spotting things, even without the application of manual penalties. Google's most recent update brought in an automated spamdexing filter which seems to be doing the trick quite nicely.
Please sticky me if you're interested.
Chris
The concensus seems to be that it is NOT POSSIBLE to get good rankings in Google for competitive phrases using approved methods
A fellow member did quite well with one of the most competitive terms. The technique used was getting serious inbound anchor text.
Unfortunatly I wont be able to pass of what industry or keywords as that would be bad form. But it can be done, I have seen it.
1. Design problems "not fixed" reduces any strategy to near zero effectiveness. A 1 second look before my first post indicated that the problems you had 1 1/2 years ago are still there, and
2. No matter what else you do "links" with good link anchors is needed to rank well... this includes "very competitive" industry with the difference "many more links required".
3. Have you tried Adwords? They work and work well.
Not just to produce "a sale" but also a cheap effective way of determining how "market-effective" and motivating your site is e.g. > if your campaign budget is gone and you have no (or few) sales > lack of good optimization is not the website's problem.
A competitive industry indicates one thing > lots want what you have.
Whether you can reach them or not > if the site "can't" sell, the site can't sell no matter how optimize it is.
Adwords normally have conversions of 2.5 - 5% > how have yours been? (and if you haven't use them you should).
I have been in this biz for some many years now. I've seen newbie after newbie throw up a shingle and call themselves a search engine expert. There are about 100 core pro-quality optimizers on the net. Most of them you never hear about.
I would look for 1 thing in any seo I'd hire: Show me top 10 rankings under 200+ related keywords on Google to the same domain. Yes 200+. Anything less and they are not someone you'd want to hire because they don't get Google.
At this point in the history of SEO - there is nothing else, there is only Google. That's all that matters. Optimize for it, and let the chips fall everywhere else where they may.
If you have cash to burn for pfi/ppc, then you don't need a seo, you need a ppc guru and I'd do that from a stand alone domain that blocks Google. You bet, I'd keep the paid and free 100% apart and block from each other.
The specific q's:
>using purely Google-approved optimization techniques
Long term, that is the ONLY way that is going to work. Think content. Quality content that people are going to want to link too. Compliment your competition, don't duplicate it. Fill in all the bits of content they are missing. Study the tar out of usability - yes, buy a book by Jacob and learn how to do quality usability testing.
We've got a moderator who was telling me they were hitting 10-12% roi. 1 out of 7 to 8 clicks were converting. That's while the competition was doing 1-2%. Pure traffic is grand while traffic that converts rocks.
Get yourself to the point you could ponder cutting the se's off entirely. There is a whole hidden world [webmasterworld.com] of traffic out there we don't talk enough about.
Get to the point that Google can't refuse your site. I know a few dozen highly successful site folks who have never even considered search engine optimization before. Their entire focus for their site is on the user and giving them what they want. They have become indispensable to their users and consequently to the search engines as well.
Seriously, there is a member here who runs a top site (alexa top 500). He's been in the biz for 7 years. Last week I had to explain to him what a search engine spider was and how it worked.
>In a world where all the winners are doing it,
Oh no they aren't. Stop that right there ;-) That line of thinking will only hurt you. Don't worry about the competition, worry about your users. Worry that you are servicing their needs long term.
Those so-called "winners" may be cashing in today, but the future of the net is still wide open. Who knows what will come in the next year? A year ago, if you'd told me that Overture would buy both Alta and AllTheWeb and that Yahoo would buy Inktomi, I would have fallen off my chair.
> morally acceptable to abuse Google's rules,
They have one of the highest PHD brain matter to square foot of any company on the net. How arrogant of SEO's to think we could "hurt" them, or "out wit" them. If there is a problem with googles search results - that is part-n-parcel their problem and we should keep our noses out of it. Spam is their issue, not ours. Their little spider shows up of it's own accord. Often without any webmaster intervention or approval. It is their issue with their results. Your site and your visitors are your issue - just as theirs is theirs.
Your last post is puzzling and alarming. You asked me to re-read your first post carefully. I just did that. The summary is:
1. the first "visible" words on the page are extremely important.
I have updated the page to visible contain relevant keywords above any other content.
2. if you can't get back to the mainpage from almost all other web pages your web site isn't link savvy.
All pages can return to the home page via the Departments Link.
3. hidden text and hidden links at the bottom of the page (or any where else) is obviously not a good practices and why sites get penalized.
I don't have any. And I DO have extensive VISIBLE link maps at the bottom of many pages.
4. Continued - Design for the visitor -... you normally have one shot to make a first "good" impression.
I'm trying, and the site has been usability tested extensively. An identical site selling totally different products is doing extremely well. You allude to point 3 being "included in this". I don't understand. We still have no hidden links. Please say directly, what you think is wrong here.
5. Everyone knowns that "incoming links" are important particularly with Google...
We have 13 incoming links. I take (and took) you point that making link -adding easier is a good thing.
And your three suggestions are noted.
So what did I miss that you felt was worth me re-reading it?
You go on to say:
1. Design problems "not fixed" reduces any strategy to near zero effectiveness. A 1 second look before my first post indicated that the problems you had 1 1/2 years ago are still there, and ...
HMMMM. It seems you are familiar with my site and have been for some time. Please tell me what those problems are! The things you mention don't seem to be what you're talking about, so I'm puzzled.
On your further points:
2. No matter what else you do "links" with good link anchors is needed to rank well... this includes "very competitive" industry with the difference "many more links required".
YOU MEAN ANCHOR TEXT WHICH INCLUDES KEYWORDS?
IF SO, I'M PUZZLED BECAUSE I FEEL THEY ALREADY DO. CAN YOU GIVE ME A CURRENT EXAMPLE (IN STICK, I GUESS) AND HOW YOU THINK IT SHOULD CHANGE?
3. Have you tried Adwords? They work and work well.
Not just to produce "a sale" but also a cheap effective way of determining how "market-effective" and motivating your site is e.g. > if your campaign budget is gone and you have no (or few) sales > lack of good optimization is not the website's problem.
I HAVE TRIED AD-WORDS. I CAN'T RECALL THE C.R. BUT THIS WEBSITE - MORE-OR-LESS AS-IS, (IN TERMS OF PRODUCTS AND ERGONOMICS) WAS DELIVERING A CONVERSION RATE OF 2.3% TWO YEARS AGO WHEN WE WERE AT NUMBER 1 IN YAHOO FOR A VERY COMPETITIVE TERM.
In summary, Fathom, you seem to be knowledgeable about my site in particular ad about SEO in general, but tntalising, I am currently unable to take any of your points and turn them into things I should change at my website.
Please help!
Chris
Hi Brett,
200+ keywords in the top 10? That's not just SEO - that's health, wealth and happiness!
I'm not sure why you'd block your ppc domain from google, presumably ppc sites don't need optimizing, so would not employ "low tricks" and would not be banned? Clearly, I'm missing something here.
You say long term Google-approved techniques is the ONLY was that is going to work.
Well, I'm several years into this now, with no sign of the Rolly Royce as yet.
I bough Neilsen's book, and applied much of what I learned, though the pages are FAR larger than he recommends.
The site is usability-tested and well thought of in that regard.
An identical site selling totally different products (fabrics & stuff for quilters) is doing very well indeed.
Shame I don't own it anymore :-)
I agree that we need qualified traffic - not just traffic. Our conversion ration has dropped from 2.3% to about 0.8%.
It's because I'm inadvernently attracting a lot of traffic from the clothing sector.
We do sell clothes, but what we sell and what they want don't match up. Hence - poor qualification.
I can't see how to change the keywords to fix this - I think it's because clothing is not nearly so competitive as my #1 area,
and so I'm popping to the top without even trying. I'm thinking of splitting out the clothing side to a seperate domain.
More tedious work with long delays and no guarantees. Life stinks! :-)
I don't know how I can get to the point where Google can't refuse my site, Brett.
We're small, UK-based, and on the grand scheme of things - totally insignificant.
But I hear you about not needing SEO. The other site I mentiond earlier - built from the same software - is hugely successful.
In fact it's holding up a business which would have dies otherwise, 3 years ago. The business owner doesn't know what SEO is, doesn't know what a keyword is, and in fact, is not a competent user of her own website! All the more galling that I'm having these problems.
Brett, I AM serving my customers long-term needs. And I don't think spamdexing is actually antisocial. It's not like SPAM, which inflicts misery and some expense on millions of innocent bystanders in the sad selfish hope of making a few sales.
Smapdexing is accomodating the fact that Google's algorithms are currently dumb, so we're trying (reluctantly) to spoon-feed it in ever more foolish ways, in order to have it deliver to its customers WHAT THEY WANT. I.e. - no losers - no victims.
Sure, if you fill innocent people's guest books with links then you're abusing them, and that's bad.
But all the other stuff - keyword hiding, back-links, etc. - seems to me to be fine. THERE ARE NO VICTIMS. The only downer is the risk of the death penalty from Google.
You allude to this bright future again. Brett - but I am living TODAY.
I will transfer yet another chunk of my life saving accross to my business account TODAY to prop up the business.
This current slump has been going on for MANY MONTHS, and the business has not done well in two YEARS.
I'm sure Google has lots of PhDs at their disposal.
Mind you - I used to work with a PhD who had trouble getting his trousers on the right way round.
But seriously - there are real things they could be doing RIGHT NOW.
If I thought they'd listen, I'd invest half a day in writing them down.
Right now, the state-of-the-art is this: the way to get to the top of the rankings - is by stuffing keywords, making link texts and page names contain keywords, pushing keywords to the top of the page, finding excuses to repeat keywords, and yada yada ugg, ugg, ugg, bloody ugg.
It should not take a PhD to know that incoming links are NOT a good indicator of how good an online shop is, because that paradigm doesn't apply well to commercial sites. Or that parking a list of keywords above your navigation bar does NOT improve the quality of a site nor it's relevance to the search terms placed there. In fact, it makes the site ugly and confusing, and wastes screen area. Hey - I know what - let's hide them! Hehehe.
I can't see anyone out to hurt these PhDs, Brett. I *can* see people trying to work the sytem to their best advantage, and you can see that as outwitting, I suppose. Arrogance doesn't come into it.
Google is at the top, and it got there by being the best. No question. It's also got a moral stance which I really like.
But I have a great business, selling a huge range of producst at genuinely fantastic prices. Our customer service is second to absolutely no-one.
And.. and... and... we're dying because we can't get Google to like us.
That's the bottom line!
Still, I will resist the low-tricks and march on into poverty (violins, please).
Cheers, Brett.
Chris
You seems to have a perfectly sound e-business approach, good real world products (clothes) and apparently a great service.
I know that it may sound daft but is there no other way to sell you product or advertise your company than Google?
I mean I am also in the UK and there is LOADS of scheme available to businesses in the UK (even more for small businesses):
Have you thought of every possible way to promote your site in the internet world but also in the real world? I don't know teaming up with clothes stores, supermarket chains but also clothes magazines and websites?
I think that SEO is only 1 part of business success (and it can be a small one I should add): proper marketing is the key to let people know what you do and who you are.
Leo
I have dabbled in online advertising and got ripped off badly. I've tried newspaper advertising and it was a waste of money. I'm reluctant to spend thousands on magazine advertising, though I suppose I could.
I've signed up to several banner exchanges over the years, but they were badly administered and/or crooked. I should look at this again though.
My sticky to you will she dfurther light on the other options you suggested.
Thanks for your time & effort.
Chris
<Whether you can reach them or not > if the site "can't" <sell, the site can't sell no matter how optimize it is.
<Adwords normally have conversions of 2.5 - 5% > how have <yours been? (and if you haven't use them you should).
I have that problem, it seems my site can't sell. I get mainly well targeted (I think)traffic from adwords. Yet my conversion rate is abysmal. I would give vital parts of my anatomy for a 2.5% conversion rate.
Where do you start in trying to determine why a site does not sell? Any advise, things to look at or consider would be very appreciated.
Thanks
Harwich
Another good conversion-related discussion:
[webmasterworld.com...]
Getting back to SEO rather than stray though, there's a whole field of study that deals with information architecture, the laying out of web sites for ease and clarity of navigation, which is a major factor in conversion.
There are many among us who feel that with Google one of the basic keys to getting good rankings is setting up the navigation properly, making for a convergence between optimization and user-friendliness.
Given all the rankings and good copy in the world, if users can't find their way around a site quickly and easily they can't buy. They may come in on a particular search, but one of the things that will affect their comfort level is being able to understand the site and know where they are and how to get back to where they were.
Simple, easy to understand navigation helps users and helps with search engines as well. Good SEO and good conversion aren't mutually exclusive.
I have actually read both of those threads several times, along with every other thread I can pull up searching for conversion.
I have done everything they talked about that was applicable to my site. I think I am going to set up a mirror and start testing and tracking changes. I will use identical adword campaigns so that the traffic should be of equivelant quality.
As far as navigation goes I use a basic javascript dropdown menu along the top of every page and have a footer with links to contact us, Policies, etc. Do people run into problems still with the drop down menus? I thought they were pretty standard now.
Thanks
Harwich.
