Forum Moderators: open
I don't want to end up on a scam site.
How do you guys deal with it, or do you get similar requests?
That said, how about building in a bonus rate structure - a lower base fee that your client might accept up front, with a tiered system of bonuses for performance. If you don't perform to expectations, the client gets a lower fee than otherwise; if you deliver great results and put them on page 1, you get a big bonus.
You guarantee your work "I guarantee to optimize your web site using the best practices in online marketing". Not the results. The site/page could be #1 but this rarely is a pure reflection of your competence.
You... yourself have no control over what search engines do, algo used, algo changes, who can pay or how much they pay nor what the future holds.
In addition, you have no control over others hiring a competent SEOer that matches your level of expertise.
In addition, you have no control over search habits of searchers thus today that #1 position is a goldmine and tomorrow that goalmine went the way of the goldrush.
In addition, you rarely have the necessary expertise to quantify a web site owner's web page content. Knowledge of keywords and keyphrases rarely reflect your competency in any or all professions.
In the end you can only guarantee your work - not the results.
Ever hear of a contractor building an apartment building and guaranteeing to the owner that people will move in or the results of why the owner wanted the building in the first place.
Put an ad in a newspaper, magazine etc., they guarantee distribution to say 1 million subscribers will receive the distributed product not 1 million people will read your ad.
If their site gets listed in a search and better with you than without you - Your guaranteed work is acceptable.
and a performance promise:
"We can get your site listed in the top 10 for at 3 of the following 20 terms"
Many seos don't like either.
Your client wants RESULTS not your best EFFORTS.
Attorneys that work on a percentage don't GUARANTEE you that you will win (they mught say that), but they only get paid if you do.
The vast majority of "SEOs" out there CAN NOT do any good for their clients. Some of them don't know that and some of them do.
I don't think it is a scam to offer a guarantee - as long as you point out what it really is.
If an SEO can't guarantee SOMETHING - they shouldn't be in the business. Some may chose not to do so for certain reasons, but if you can't get good placement for at least one out of 50 terms - you are in the wrong business.
I seem to be wasting far too much time researching clients sites. I get many enquiries regards SEO work, only to lose 80% of jobs seemingly because I will not guarantee page 1 google.
I waste approximately 15 minutes per deadend lead.
A while back I had an opportunity to be in the same position. To reduce this occurence I setup a web site (private and not in any search engine index) that generically covered the above points, and other generic considerations.
I include my price schedules and a variety of strategies which vertically price my services according to risk.
All risk is mine - I get most of the returns
All risk is theirs - they get all of the returns
and a number of middle grounds (pricing) inbetween.
About 80% I never hear from again - but this is mostly on their time not mine.
The point being, I do play the percentages game, If a site is a no hoper for a given term I give my reasons why, diplomatically I hope, and pass it by.
You mention attorneys, in the same context as SEO's, perhaps an attorney will sue me if I guarentee results that do not materalise?
BTW Attorneys never ever state they will win, in writing at any rate.
"I don't think it is a scam to offer a guarantee - as long as you point out what it really is"
But I'm not the one pointing out? The client does that, page 1 or get lost?
If an SEO can't guarantee SOMETHING - they shouldn't be in the business.
I think it's the something is the problem.
Intangibles that have no fix dimensions, is very subjective.
I would say that "chinese widget software designer" is likely achievable for top ranking but this really shouldn't be what is guaranteed.
Personally I refuse to be involved in an inflexable contract that binds my hands to develop in the best interest of the client. A contract that does not take into consideration the dynamics and divesity of the web, and search engine flux where the constraint of said contract are predetermined in advance of any and all research and analysis.
I therefore guarantee...
I guarantee to review this phrase and others to determine the likelihood of ranking, the likelihood of visitation, the likelihood of sales potential, and in the shortest period of time and implement these into the best strategy to reach a predetermined deliverable (but not necessarily a given ranked position).
I quarantee that I will not venture into practices that may induce banning and/or penality potential.
I guarantee that I will develop a site to achieve the best possible market reach. This may or may not be associated with predetermined search terms.
I guarantee that I will investigate the potential to develop new market penetration, complementing current visitation and sales, and provide the client any and all previously unconsidered markets to clients immediate attention, and implement these on request of the client.
I guarantee that these action will provide superior fruition to the client than guaranteeing any specific term or terms ranked positions.
Guaranteeing a specific term or terms to me seem amateurish. All businesses have primary and secondary markets and can not be so easily defined by a few search queries.
In the context of the web a professional SEO knows this, the client does not.
To this extent - a guaranteed ranking on a specific term is quite underproductive for the client, but unless the client understands this... your relationship is also underproductive.
One opinion anyway. :)
PArt of the job of an SEO - IMHO - is client education.
"Your site isn't going to be rated #1 for music - sorry"
Anyone that takes money - when this is what the client wants (assuming they aren't someone who we could expect such a listing for) is a scam artist. I don't care how hard someone tries - they are scamming or stupid.
EFFORTS mean nothing. Trying hard is nice, but it doesn't count when your clients page doesn't get results.
Help the client find keywords they CAN compete on AND get results for.
I know it is hard to get business. Plenty of people have unrealistic expectations - and every guy after you they talk to will sell them something they can't deliver.
Hopefully you will find clients that will understand a reasoned and measured approach to SEO. The being said - most people who hold them out for SEOs can't do this - as they are incompetent.
They read this and some other SEO forums, a few sites on meta tags and think they are ready to go.
Unfortunately most customers have almost as bad of an education and have no idea what is true or false.
That said, how about building in a bonus rate structure - a lower base fee that your client might accept up front, with a tiered system of bonuses for performance. If you don't perform to expectations, the client gets a lower fee than otherwise; if you deliver great results and put them on page 1, you get a big bonus.
Mardi_Gras - I have to say, I love this idea. Pay for performance. You gain if you do well, and the client should have no problem paying more for a better performace either. It's a win-win.
Does anyone out there actually do this? Care to share details?
whether you bring me up on #1 or #8 does NOT matter, its the quality of traffic that counts.
to be honest any SEO that EVER says to me, We will make you #1 , is usually crossed off the list straightaway.
be honest in your approach and the sensible people will use you and also rate you for being honest.
also as has been mentioned, if you can get paid per lead/sale, even better as this could turn into a lot more than you would actually earn otherwise.
SEO is just another marketing tool now, not much different from PPC, banners, press etc etc.
RESULTS is what counts.
Shak
Guaranteeing a specific term or terms to me seem amateurish
I agree. Problem with a lot of my work (hotels and travel) is that the user can seach hotels singular or plural, and with the location coming before or after the word hotel(s). Different serps for each.
However if you write a site against, say "lovely small hotels in Hicksville, Iowa" then you can pretty well guarantee that it will be number one on Google against that specific search.
Most of the "guarantees" I see are against such specific terms that will attract few searches (though the prospective client does not realist that).
Or are based on a spread of Search Engines which include ones that you can cheaply buy to the top. Google may be on the list, but the guarantor is only offering the client top in 5 out of 10 engines or whatever.
Yes I agree entirely, but I get problems trying to get this across to potentials.
I strive to explain, 100-targeted visitors a day, is better than 1000 surfers.
I can imagine the guy’s brain ticking over when reading my email, "This guy is trying to pull the wool over my eyes"
Normally the reply is, "these are the term/s we require, 'we have carefully studied overture's, adwords etc word search tool."
Of course they usually misinterpret the results, they may be selling hotel rooms in the C.Isles, but decide they want the phrase/s, "holiday hotels" "vacation hotels" etc etc
A poor example may be, but I hope you get the drift.
Sometimes I feel like pulling my hair out in frustration, especially when I see they have a fistful of dough they are doing their best to waste. I am 99.9% certain which search phrases are unattainable for a said site, but all that is needed is a more targeted approach.
The reverse does happen occasionally, where a decent PR site requests a nice easy niche term.
I do have some respectable and understanding clients, some are real gems.
But going back to my original post, I need to utilise my time to better effect.
Thank you for some great advice
whether you bring me up on #1 or #8 does NOT matter, its the quality of traffic that counts.
yeah, that’s it shak. from that point of view, a SEO is just another marketer promoting the company.
say a guy starts to make phone calls to promote his site, saying something like “if you enter www.mysite.com you will find these and those widgets. if you buy online you will get -10% discount”
ok, this is an stupid example, the point is that there are some small businesses that only have one marketer dedicated to the online strategy; your usual expert-in-marketing guy is ALSO the SEO of the site, the budget of the company can’t afford a SEO expert.
if the important things are buys and traffic:
• is a SEO limited to only optimize search results?
• if you, as a SEO, are having though times to get job; should you steal a page of the marketing playbook and do different things?
• should the SEO take another point of action and promote the site in a different way?
I do more marketing (and less web work) then most people here, so I don't know how common it is in the tech world. But it is a pricing strategy I've been looking to implement for my own business, and I can see it easily being applied to the example cited here.
20% conversion of enquiries to business is quite high for most business sectors.
Do you really want the clients who after you have explained to them how things work then go ahead and ignore what you have said, they are likely to cause you problems from the start of the contract to the end.
You are right I also think my conversions are very good, so the idea seems to work, but I think I'm missing some lucrative contracts because of the guarantee question.
Which can take many lengthy emails phone calls research etc,
and the punch line at the end of it all is very often, "ok we will go with that,'providing you guarentee page 1"
S..t......#hours down the drain.
20% conversion of enquiries to business is quite high for most business sectors.
20% conversion of enquiries to business is not just "quite high" its "very high"
Any business that could achieve it is either not getting many enquires, or is profitable beyond the dream of avarice.
but I get problems trying to get this across to potentials.
I strive to explain, 100-targeted visitors a day, is better than 1000 surfers.
Chris_R brought up a valid and concise point.
PArt of the job of an SEO - IMHO - is client education.
Regardless of what you call yourself, SEO, e-marketer, online marketer, SE Specialist, etc. your job is more about educating than anything else.
Achieving ranked position on anything is possible with the right set of variables and time dependent.
The problem that I see most often is the potential client is in the dark on "how to - know-how" thus they make wild uninformed requests and the SEO in return attempts to appease them simply because they want the contract - thus the "guarantee on rank position".
Others fear of developing a direct competitor by leaking too much information - on the consenses that "if they know what I know" they will cut me out and steal business from me".
Both are wrong...
If you want fruition in search engine strategies, educate... your credibility will grow 10 fold and your revenue along with it.
The vast majority of businesses are content with managing their core products and services, and even those that attempt to mirror your services lack the background thus they should be inferior.
Exactly Fathom, the customer is always right so they say, we are servants and appease accordingly, but only when it suits?
"20% conversion of enquiries to business is not just "quite high" its "very high"
"Any business that could achieve it is either not getting many enquires, or is profitable beyond the dream of avarice".
Cornwall
If you want, I’ll swap you 2000 music cd’s for 10 Krugerands, as long as we both promise to market them via the web?
You get a great deal here, the cd's are worth much more.
