Should we be teaching students frames?

Am I wasting their time?

[lioness]

I'm wrestling w/ my conscience, and need some input.

I'm in the process of developing an online web programming course. I'm required to follow the 'course objectives', but, other than that, can run free.

The question of whether or not to teach frames has come up. I'd prefer not to, for optimization reasons. Actually, I never liked them, even back in 95, when I first learned HTML. Somehow, they just didn't speak to me.

I'm having this internal debate. On the one hand, am I depriving the students (my 'ducklings' as I like to affectionately call them) if I send them off into that cold, cruel, world without knowing about frames?

On the other hand, how cruel is it to teach someone something, then say, "Oh yeah, don't use it, or your google rankings will forever stink"?

I weigh this against the number of ducklings who will stride purposefully into the world with the intent of building web sites which do not require optimization (and, how often does that happen??).

Oh, yes, and I'm required to teach them all this using MS FrontPage..."But, Miss Lioness said to use FrontPage, then go in and doctor all the HTML to remove all the gobbedly gook....".

[Nick_W]

Hey lioness

How about teaching the absolute fundementals and spend the rest of the class explaining why frames are so dreadful.

I don't know how to do frames and I consider myself an html/css adept. I don't know how to do them because I learnt the basics and decided it was probably the worst possible way to do things...

Nick

[Grumpus]

Yeah, you kinda need to team 'em something about frames for the simple fact that you need to teach them how to design code to "bust out of frames" and understand the concept well enough to take a web site that uses them and convert it to a "non-frames" site.

And, while I do my best to discourage it, I have about 1 of 8-10 clients insist on their site being done in frames. And, whether you like it or not, the customer is right.

G.

[pageoneresults]

I'll probably take a lot of heat for this, but, I don't see problems with framesets in general. The problems arise if you do not know how to effectively structure and optimize the framesets.

I've only used the left/right or top/bottom type framesets, no more than two (02). It is much more difficult to optimize three (03) frames or more, or at least that has been my experience.

Framesets have been a friend to many of my clients in the past and today. We make sure that those pages within the frameset can also stand on their own outside the frameset.

We've got framesets pulling pageoneresults in Google and other SE's. If you keep them simple, and optimize them correctly, there should not be that much of an issue. I would definitely not recommend that the main category pages be in framesets. Keep your core content outside of the framesets and then you can easily incorporate the frames within specific categories of the site.

Frames work when constructed and optimized properly. Now, does the site absolutely call for frames? And then, how many frames? That would be the major hurdle to overcome.

P.S. Do not frame the home page!

[pageoneresults]

In addition to the above comment, I've found that you need to theme the frameset. What I mean by that is, there should be single pages that can stand alone that power the framesets. These are usually entrance pages that explain where the user is going. That page also contains valuable content relative to the frameset they are about to enter.

I've also found that you have to have single pages that represent the core content of the site and the individual framesets. From those pages you then link into framesets.

I mention individual framesets because we've set up framesets for each product category in one instance. There are ten (10) framesets, each in their own directory, each powered by a sub theme which in turn is powered by the overall theme of the site. Linking structure is of great importance when optimizing framed sites, or any site for that matter.

[edited by: pageoneresults at 8:27 pm (utc) on July 4, 2002]

[rcjordan]

> I don't see problems with framesets in general. The problems arise if you do not know how to effectively structure and optimize the framesets.

I agree. Framesets have a lot of negatives, but there are instances where they are one of a webmaster's handiest tricks. I use a 100% frameset to give a meaningful, intuitive "brochure grade" url to a dynamic page, for instance. Or to handle legacy issues involving old urls that are well-indexed, but the site has since been redeveloped.

[brotherhood of LAN]

I'd more than likely be the pupil and not the tutor in this situation but I say "tell 'em about frames" ;)

I'm trying to think of the old line involving them...something like "it breaks the fundamental constant the web is based on....the "web page".

That sort of stuff is a good place to start for anyone....I believe it was one of Tim Berners Lee (sp?) articles that has been referenced in here mentioned this.

While on the subject of frames....you could also talk about I-Frames.....which seem to be growing in use, and have their uses.....

[pageoneresults]

Good points rcjordan! These days we do actively pursue other alternatives to framesets. But, based on our past experiences, we know how to work around them and make them effective.

Today's dynamic solutions are a much more effective method than framesets. Sometimes though, the clients budget may prevent dynamics, and framesets are the alternative.

[gsx]

If you teach frames, you should teach them the exceptional reasons to use them.

Eg) Sites with lots of JavaScript can be made easier with frames by storing the variables in the parent frameset. So when you go from page to page, the variables remain untouched.

[Brett_Tabke]

Skip the optimization lectures and go out and find the usability studies. Everyone done says one thing: people don't like to use framed websites and are less likely to return.

[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 10:24 am (utc) on July 5, 2002]

[pageoneresults]

Ouch! Someone who doesn't like frames. I can understand the usability issue and that is why you don't see many topics here about frames.

I still feel they serve a purpose and can be made to be appealing to the user. I say that because I've had to nurture three sites that have been in framesets for years. I still maintain those sites as the products are being updated and I've been pushing to get them into a database driven environment.

Problem is, the framesets are working very well for their (the clients') industries. The framesets are used mostly for displaying larger product images and the linking structures are child proof!

I know, I know, the usability studies say otherwise and I concur with them for the most part. I think a lot of those studies had to do with 3, 4 and sometimes 5 frames within a set, thats when usability becomes a major problem.

[rjohara]

Knowing what to leave out is the most important aspect of teaching. I'd say the answer to the original question depends on how much time is available and what the students will be doing once they "gradiate." If they will be making their own websites and are likely to have full control over those sites, I'd be inclined to talk about frames and give them a list of resources that would let them learn more, but not take up time teaching them how to create frames. If on the other hand they will be going out in the world to manage other people's sites (and don't know what they might be given) I think they'll have to know the basics of frames in case they are assigned a framed site to work on.

RJO

[TallTroll]

Like 'em or not, in a teaching context it would be irresponsible to ignore frames. It would be equally irresponsible to ignore the issues surrounding them.

Your students should be given enough to make an informed choice, based on their requirements. I know a lot of members here consider frames and Flash to be Old Nicks handiwork, but both have their place when properly applied. If no-one teaches the "ducklings" how to apply 'em, how will they ever know?

[Eric_Jarvis]

simple answer...if you don't also teach them when to use frames and when not to, and how to write a proper noframes section, then you are wasting their time

not teaching frames at all might be short changing them

teaching them to use frames simply as a positioning tool would be wasting their time and everyone else's

[Mark_A]

Agree with Eric, and would add that frames are sometimes the most appropriate and stylish solution.

I just took a look at a site I did 2 years ago which was all framed inc the homepage. In most cases multiple frames. It still ranks on page 2 in Google for its main keyword and is still bringing in the business for that company.

If you wanted to display data like an excel spreadsheet and wanted the column headers to remain visible as users scroll down, frames would be one of the simplest solutions.

(how would you feel if your browser buttons dissapeared when you scrolled down a web page :-)

If you wanted to update navigation site wide and did not want or know how to do dynamic sites, automatic menu replacement, SSI or the suchlike again frames would still be one of the simplest solutions available.

We never had a single complaint about the use of frames on that site.

I think a lot of people are put off frames because they are not "completely easy" to make problem free and I strongly believe many of the folks who made the big complaining about them gave up before fully understanding the issues.

Within the context of the question, as Eric noted, if you are going to do more than mention frames I agree you need to ensure people know about the options for use of the noframes tag, the target attribute for links, orphan pages and imho "all index architecture".

[Mark_A]

lioness there is one other argument I think should be put as to why you should include frames.

Most pieces of software in common use use frames themselves, static areas for frequently used buttons and commands and variable areas for contents and user data.

If you were to make an example of some piece of software you are using in the class it might make the basic navigation / display options quickly understandable.

Good luck with your teaching, you have my admiration as do all teachers :-)

[rogerd]

You have to teach frames simply because any web designer will encounter framed sites that need to be maintained, converted, etc.

I think frames DO have a very limited place in the webmaster's arsenal - displaying a resource from another site is one example. Google uses a frame approach in its image search result display. Another situation is displaying content created by someone else that needs to be changed frequently. (One site I work on has a monthly price list from a vendor, for example.) Sticking the changing content in a frame avoids having to do editing to add navigation, etc. (This could be accomplished by other means, of course, but a frame did the job quickly and easily.)

By all means, when you are doing the frames chapter, be sure to tell 'em not to put "Your browser doesn't support frames..." in the NOFRAMES content!!

[jatar_k]

being an avid frames disliker I seldom agree with their use, but as has been mentioned numerous times above. They need to know about them. They are a fundamental part of the web, like it or not.

What if one of your ducklings' first task is to take a large site out of frames? Which pages should be left in frames in a job like that? Every time I have taken a site out of frames I have always had a page or section that wouldn't make sense any other way. I sometimes think that this one page was what started the problem in the first and prompted them to put the whole site in frames in the first place.

They will also be likely to work with a site that uses frames at some point, as we all have. If they don't know the basics they will be hard pressed to accomplish much.

I think it is necessary to understand frames and know how and when to use them. Being that they are such a pain it is more difficult to know when they are required.

I admit I hate them but I have used them numerous times and they have made my life a lot easier.

Maybe it goes to the "all things in moderation" argument, who knows, but they definitely should be exposed to them and understand their methods, behaviours and why to use, or not use, them.

[kujanomiko]

I've never made a commercial site, but I've used an iframe for my main site, and I can say I'd never do it again, especially if it was a commericial site. Why? My content is all mixed in together, in step-by-step processes (like, say, a chaptering HTML tutorial) and I like my users to be able to access it from one place (the use of the frame) but of course, Google recognizes not the frame in its results, but the actual page.

But its all in good fun, I'm learning. What way to learn but with a personal site?

[lioness]

Ah! So much to respond to. Thank you, thankyou, thank you, everyone, for your wise words.

In addition to all the issues that everyone brought up, there's the issue of how much experience these ducklings have. This might be a 1st web programming course for some, and a 2nd for others. Some will have no programming experience, so concepts like the scope of a variable will be totally foreign to them. (Actually, variable scope is a pretty foreign concept to even my VB programming ducklings. For some reason, it seems to be a hard concept for the ducklings to grasp.)

Actually, I shouldn't even use the term web programming. To me, web programming gets into the perl, asp, php, database, etc aspect of web pages. This course will deal strictly with creating web pages, creating a web site and uploading it onto the web. Since we'll be using MS FrontPage, there probably won't be there much time to get too heavy into HTML. Gee, I could probably spend the whole 6 weeks, talking about useability, planning, design, etc, and not even get into actual HTML.

Thank you for the sanity check. I agree that I would be remiss in not introducing frames, and having the ducklings do at least 1 exercise using frames. I needed to have a good reason to teach them something they may never use, and now you have given me reasons why it is a worthwhile endeavor. Again, many thanks.

[itrainu]

To Frame or not to frame ;-) I teach html, FrontPage and Dreamweaver. I prefer to leave out frames and give the students more of an opportunity to focus on the skills that they are more likely to need. However, I am sure to ask the students about their goals at the beginning of the class and any websites they contribute to. I usually try to take a look at these sites during the class and use them as examples and have the students comment on the sites. If someone mentions, or I realize that a site is done in frames, I usually ask some questions around it. Most common reason is to make it easier to create each page. What I propose then is that they create a template to use. I talk about why frames are not preferred by all users...and then I seal the deal with "frames do not adhere to Government of Canada online Common Look and Feel". Teaching in the capital of Canada, the majority of my students work for the federal government. Even those who don't, most businesses are adopting "Common Look and Feel" standards as developed by our government. If interested in these specs, they can be found by searching for "common look and feel" at [canada.gc.ca....] Good luck! I might use the example of taking a website out of frames ;-)

itrainu

[Marcia]

>>On the other hand, how cruel is it to teach someone something, then say, "Oh yeah, don't use it, or your google rankings will forever stink"?

Actually, it's not impossible to do OK, but it's overly complicated and far out-weighed by usability issues.

I have to agree with jatar_k on this one, since I just had to deal with a framed site for the first time in a couple of years, and with another, it was a beautiful site but so bad for seo purposes I just suggested a redesign altogether, which they did.

What I'm thinking, lioness, is that some of them may end up working on sites commercially and could possibly come across potential clients (or even friends or relatives) with sites already in frames who want to keep it that way. So they need at least a basic understanding of the concepts.

Maybe a brief introduction to the basics, with the bare essentials of how to make the site as spiderable and usable as possible would be a good idea. Like using the noframes properly and making certain there's alternative navigation on the site pages in addition to that in the frameset/navigation frame.

Then they'd have a starting point to go further if it ever were to come up.

[itrainu]

Lioness, I have sticky mailed you with an outline as to how I teach the concept of frames ;-)

itrainu