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I really am curious.
Thanks
Tony
I agree with you asptony where you said that.
There are times to use one vs. the other.
The fact that ive seen very few forums written in ActiveHTML and that the selisoft site its-self seems to have been written in php, makes me think that ActiveHTML must have some sort of dissadvantage somewhere in the area of GUI's.
Does anyone know of any situations where it might be more beneficial to use php rather than ActiveHTML?
My point was that whilst Easy_Coder was quick to place the blame on me the coder, he was not willing to provide examples to back up his claims.
Stuper-
He wasn't the only one to first assume it's a coding error, because I would bet that it is as well.
I'm sure a lot of the frequent participants on this board have made very successful login modules. Do you know what it takes to make one? If you do, then you're well on your way to completing it. If you don't, then there's a good place to start: Find out what you need to guard against, do some research, and then build it. My rates are fair if you need help ;)
Seriously though, no one here wants to post 1000 lines of code as an example. We'd much rather help you out with any questions you may have. So we don't further jack this thread, start a new one if you have any questions.
Here, how about if I re-word this:
The strength lies in your ability to code; either language will let you write a rock solid login routine OR a really crappy routine.
to:
The strength lies in *ones* ability to code; either language will let *one* write a rock solid login routine OR a really crappy routine.
I don't need to back that statement up with a code example because it's aimed at ones methodologies.
My new question was related to this topic. Sorry if I confused anyone.
My question reguarding ASP vs PHP is, What are some times when it might be more beneficial to use one over the other?
I simply asked if there were any known problems with asp and got all this code crap thrown at me.
That about explains it (missing the point) for me right there...
What are some times when it might be more beneficial to use one over the other?
If *one* knows ASP better than PHP, it would be beneficial to use ASP.
If *one* knows PHP better than ASP, it would be beneficial to use PHP.
If *one's* server only supported ASP, it would be beneficial to use ASP.
If *one's* server only supported PHP, it would be beneficial to use PHP.
If *one's* choices are none of the above, then it doesn't make one bit of difference.
PHP is one language where as ASP is many languages working together. I would tend to think that ASP would offer more flexability but with that flexability there would have to be consequenses such as a drop in speed of execution or something.
There has to be a difference in speed of execution, interpretation, size, flexability, accessability, compatability and more.
If you all honestly believe that there are no differences between them then you are only kidding yourselves.
There are differences, yes. In syntax. Basically they are both interpreted technologies. ASP has the ability to run compiled COM objects.
We've covered all this in earlier posts.
txbakers is a qualified asp coder who knows and understands it's benefits and limitations and has written enough code to be qualified to make that judgement
I am a qualified php coder who knows and understands it's benefits and limitations and have written enough code to be qualified to make that judgement
we agree there is no difference except for what txbakers put in msg 39
so I would say that we are not kidding ;)
ASP.NET is a career in itself. If you've got the skills there should be little problem in finding corporate employment. In most corporate environments you will find MS products - far fewer will be running PHP. So, if your looking for a job - go ASP.NET or even classic ASP.
If you earn your keep by banging out web sites for yourself or clients - either PHP or ASP will take care of you fine. ASP.NET will likely be overkill and from my experience with it a tad slower in development.
If you have *zero* ASP/PHP skills and are trying to decide which one to start with --> Go with PHP for the only reason that classic ASP is likely to be phased out by MS leaving you to learn another platform.
Really, it's a career decision.
I work with both ASP & PHP. I originally started with ASP and added PHP 2 years later. Although there may be some small differences, a small investment in a RAM or CPU upgrade will cancell those out.
So if you have an ASP site and think you could get it to go faster using PHP...wouldn't it be easier, faster and less expensive to get some additional CPU or RAM for the server?
As txbaker said earlier, it sometimes depends on what options you have, not which one is better.
As to which is better, you would have to consider that on a case by case basis (server OS & configuration, existig code, developer's knowledge etc...)
JSP and PHP are basically free and can run on any platform. ASP requires either a Microsoft server (IIS) or a purchase of Chilisoft from Sun to run on a *NIX machine. ColdFusion requires the purchase of the CF server from macromedia.
I do agree that one should use what one feels most comfortable with, as long as it has the capabilities one needs. There is no fun in needing to migrate a VBScript application over to PHP because the latter doesn't have what you need, or because your boss decided to cut costs by going with a new FreeBSD or Linux server.
(BTW, if anyone only tried RedHat or Knoppix ... you didn't pick the best distros to try. Try Debian, next time.)
If you are in a corporate or other large-scale environment and would like to learn which languages have the widest scope of established users and support, this may help you make your decisions as to which environment you want to throw your company's resources at:
TIOBE Programming Community Index for April 2005 [tiobe.com]
"The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled engineers, courses and third party vendors."
Interesting to note where PHP is and where the MS technologies are, in that list (C/C++ aside). So if you needed 20 programmers in a hurry, which language is your best bet?
Regarding the exploitation and security of PHP as mentioned earlier in this thread:
here's a security note from PHP.net that addresses that. [php.net]
Basically, as many have noted here, it's the application that is often weak, not the platform.
Like a musical instrument, a scripting/programming language is only valuable when it is used. ANY language will do if you feel inspired by it and want to work with it.
Personally, I prefer not to need to buy something I can build myself. If I need to buy an interpreter just to be able to use a free language, that's not much of a bargain for me.
my personal experience with CF is that it is crap, spent a fair amount of time working with a programmer who was very fluent with CF. His thoughts were
"the only reason I use it is because it's built in search is great, aside from that, it is too slow and too expensive"
I would say second tier at best for CF
I am an ASP developer, although my background is C++, Perl, PHP and more recently C#. (My claim to fame is that i turned down a job at Microsoft in US developing the VB platform a few years ago because i am firmly a UK guy!)
ASP is a technology platform, PHP is a scripting language. Simple as that - PHP is traditionaly used with Linux Apache installations, VBScript/JScript is normally used with ASP = in terms of .NET any language can be used including PHP and Perl.
In my opinion ASP and VB/VBScript has enabled many amateur developers to be programmers - and that can only be good for all of us. In terms of access to low level OS stuff - no you can't really do that, but who cares if that is what it is intended for?
I think that it is the old debate - open source v. MS - well in my opinion you get what you pay for. But i don't honestly believe that PHP is inferior - i believe that the platform is. I say that because I have 20+ servers and the MS 2003 ones offer more development flexibilty (change in development coding) than the other Linux/Unix ones.
I would say that PHP is much more powerful - but it is harder to learn. Is that not what ASP is aimed at?
PS. ASP.NET is a different ballgame - simple yet powerful (prob is that is needs the expensive MS server)
If you've ever tried securing an IIS installation to run ASP, it's not fun, and it's almost impossible to do, or was. Hopefully they've improved that too.
Since I didn't feel like waiting for MS to fix these issues, I switched years ago to PHP and Apache, mod_rewrite is a very powerful tool. Does ASP support real comments yet, last time I looked, ASP 3, you had to use those stupid ' in front of every line to comment out a block.
The support of different languages is nice but like someone said, how many people use that. Apache supports perl natively usually, Python usually, plus whatever modules you want to install/compile.
If you don't like text configuration files go with ASP, if you want to use products designed by a single company, controlled by a single company, use ASP/IIS, you'll be happy.
But for me, it was never a choice, I could feel the pain of those legions of MS programmers working under the covers of all that stuff, it was too unpleasant for me, on aesthetic principles alone, open source stuff is just more interesting, and, well, open.
I almost wasn't going to post, since the original poster asked about asp people's opinion's of php, but since I was just forced to do a translation of an asp program to PHP, I guess that qualifies me, although I pray to all the gods in the heavens I never have to do that again, I doubt there is enough money out there to make me touch IIS or ASP again, hopefully anyway.
Re the money thing, any decent programmer is going to get paid, that's not a question. Apache PHP market share is eating into IIS market share, so I'm not particularly worried about getting paid, plus if my clients want me to do programming for them, it's going to be done on Apache PHP.
I'd never expect to convince any asp iis fan to switch, but for anyone else reading this thread out of curiousity, if you've been working with MS products and have this weird sense that something isn't right even though you can't quite put your finger on it, look to open source solutions and you might find where that sensation came from, I did. Or you might not.
Perl didn't hurt WebmasterWorld or craigslist, python didn't hurt google, so don't worry about finding work, I think you'll find that the most interesting projects tend to be done in open source. As for the rest, somebody has to do it, and they should get paid for that.
Just my 2 cents. ASP and PHP are equally qualified for a task of building websites. For those who like mod_rewrite there's always ISAPI filters. I personally like ability to connect to SQL Server DB over anything open source has to offer (including non-OS Oracle).
Here's a parallel. ASP is very good in corporate environment. It is very likely that IIS is installed somewhere in a BIGCORP. Not so for Apache. If you have a musle of BIGCORP behind you, many things are easier done with IIS - including integrating data from multiple databases, RFCs, accessing Access Databases Joanne in accounting has, etc. You can middle-tier your code - and it is likely someone in the company already has functions you might need.
But that is intrAnet. IntErnet is different. Micro$oft didn't get it with ASP3. They've got it with .NET. .NET is BY FAR a more powerful environment than PHP, IMHO. But with that, it is far too complex for most of the web projects.
I've coded in both and PHP is "much" more of a straight-forward language in my opinion. It just feels right.
Plus, you have the added benefit of it being OSS, so if you ever went big time... no money out of your pocket.
BTW, I recall I saw somewhere ads where microsoft was showing off that Asp.net+Windows2003 outperformed a *nix solution on same hardware.
Did anybody see this?
This is what I was trying to say, but you said it better. The very first lines of PHP I ever wrote just felt right, I knew I had found out what was wrong with ASP, it was made by MS. I prefer something made by Rasmus and company, real people, with real identities, who truly care about what they are doing.
I realize I sort of fell into mrMister's trap, of comparing apples to oranges. Since, as several have noted, asp is a development environment [assuming that this is correct], then comparing php to asp is silly, you should be comparing it to the open source development stacks of php/perl/python/ruby/apache/mod_rewrite/linux/freebsd/unix with mysql/postgre/ingres, and whatever new stuff has been open sourced this year. I see this all the time in these kinds of discussions, pretending that the only things out there are the very basic starter things, which are in themselves extremely powerful, I mean, get real mysql is radically superior to access, which the actual honest comparison. That's what runs continental airlines partially now.
And if anyone wants to claim that any windows is more secure, more stable, and can process more request per second than a well setup unix or linux, I'd like to get in touch with your dealer, whatever he's selling I want to buy. I accept all the other points, but this last one, well, post that on zone-h dot orgs forums if they're open yet and let me know what the feedback is on claims like that, laughter would be the first guess.
"where microsoft was showing off that Asp.net+Windows2003 outperformed a *nix solution on same hardware."
Yes, I saw that, it's pure bs, they paid for the study, they setup the test in a way that ms products would win. Hopefully at some point people will start ignoring these ms sponsored 'studies'.
<ps>I'd never even look in this forum, but since brett posted this on the home page to get the pot boiling, I felt obligated to stir it a little bit. The truth of the matter of course is that, unless I have to deal with IIS, IIS hosting, or Asp products, I never think about this stuff at all. And all my dealings with iis, asp etc, cause me nothing but pain. I try to avoid pain, so I avoid that stuff.
>> Apache PHP market share
last time I checked it is leaps and bounds above IIS share
we keep talking about corporate and IIS/MS
they have nothing, if we get to corporate/enterprise MS has a mild share if any, I would vote oracle/solaris any day, no comparison. Actually I will take FreeBSD, Apache, mysql and PHP over any ms setup in a heartbeat and it would be my pleasure to quickly explan why it will severely out perform an ms setup.
but i still give asp and php equal rights to web space, as far as the rest goes, MS can pay for whatever they like, won't get em more than they have.
<added>last time I checked Yahoo didnt use asp and last time I checked MS still ran a lot of *nix servers
"last time I checked Yahoo didnt use asp and last time I checked MS still ran a lot of *nix servers
And you're probably familiar with the switch on hotmail from unix to windows, great stuff on that online, classic, the original unix stuff was trimmed down to I think 30 mB for the whole OS, they could do live upgrades of the servers without shutting anything down, windows came in at 900 mB. Again, people can claim anything they want about asp and how they like working with it, that's fine, to each their own, but don't try to pretend that windows comes anywhere remotely close to unix for serious server apps. Try to keep it at least somewhat believable...
"last time I checked it is leaps and bounds above IIS share"
IIS is dropping fast, I think it was losing like 0.8% a month, I might be off on that number. Which means more PHP, getting back to the point. If you want a career track of mid level corporate computing, you definitely want to go asp, no doubt, personally I'd rather shoot myself in the foot.
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Actually I run IIS on windows 2003 mostly with ASP vbscript. I was running PHP until recently but had a problem with PHP running against an ODBC driver against a certain Oracle function. So I switched.
I also find IIS easier and quicker to configure. It also works better with our corporate ISA server.
Now I have 2003 I don't seem to have to ever reboot the server, it never falls over. Particularly as you have so much control now over application pools.
The only problems I have are with the Mcaffee virus scanner running on the machine (which keeps trapping CDO emails) and the latest 2003 patch which caused my 3rd party ii_mod rewrite to fail. Both problems now solved.
ASP is a technology, PHP is a scripting language (not a programming language). You can't code in ASP - you code in VB Script or J Script or Perl Script etc. on the ASP platform.
The debate is either PHP vs MS Scripting languages (VB script, J Script) or Linux PHP vs Windows ASP.
PHP is a powerful scripting language, C++ is a very powerful programming language, VB Script is a cut down version of an already simple VB programming language.
No comparison in my opinion - programmers use C, C++ and low level programming languages, web developers use scripting languages like PHP, VBScript etc. PHP on Windows is crazy in my opinion because it is less integrated and one of the reasons for using PHP may be price?
At the end of the day PHP is much more powerful on Linux than ASP on Windows using any scripting language they provide - to do more advanced stuff MS has provided .NET and better low level languages like C#. But it costs more.
