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I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.
Also, I would like to know more about Dreamweaver before I invest in learning it and the required software. For example, I would never develop a Web site using FrontPage when HTML is just as easy, more versatile and less buggy.
False. Sounds like he holds stock in Macromedia. ;)
Some graphic artist use dreamweaver but HTML is a must for development. GoLive and Frontpage are other well know WYSIWYG editors. I use homesite like many developers I know. I still know many that use notepad.
I would say less than 30% of web layout is done in Dreamweaver. I would say less than 5% of web development is done in Dreamweaver.
>>I would never develop a Web site using FrontPage when HTML is just as easy, more versatile and less buggy.
Same goes for server-side scripting. I would be upset that an instructor would say that half of the ASP, PHP, JSP, Perl and what have you is created in Dreamweaver let alone all.
To say that "all" development is done in DW is just goofy, and it's a safe bet that anyone who says that is largely clueless. There are many good (and not so good) tools out there, and it would surprise me if DW even cracked 50% of the market. Even Microsoft's much-reviled FrontPage has a significant market share, and a new version that may actually correct some of its past problems.
If you want a WYSIWYG tool, I recommend DW - but don't assume that everyone else is using it!
I have a feeling that Dreamweaver may be most suitable for graphics artists who want to crank out the occasional Web site.
If you are looking for a WYSIWYG I agree with rogerd that Dreamweaver is one of the best.
Basically, I use Dreamweaver the way i used to use HomeSite. I loved HomeSite but my HTML isn't quite good enough to allow me to do anything really snazzy with it; I was constrained by my lack of knowledge.
As it is, I keep DW in the "Code and Design View" and I mostly edit the HTML with an eye on the Design View to see if it worked right, though I use the Design view to do things like set up tables, where a number of lines of code will have to be changed to stay consistent. So handy. I'm just one of those people who finds it easier to just hand-code certain things than to futz around trying to figure out how to get the program to do it automatically. I wish Word had a code view-- though it'd be horrible if it did. Yeurgh.
I think it's a great tool. But you have to know HTML to use it really effectively. The reason I chose it is because it would let me write my own HTML, and wouldn't change it. I tried Adobe GoLive, and it changed stuff. It was terrible with hand-coded javascript and the like. It just wanted things its way. Dreamweaver won't screw with your code like that. It's very faithful. If you want your HTML to be non-standard, it will let you. A few things it gets confused by, but for the most part, my solitary difficulty with it has been the difficulties with the templates. (My site is something like 95 pages at this point, with seven subtemplates and one ubertemplate. The templates are a huge deal for me, and I just wish they were a little better...)
I love it, but I my heart belongs to HomeSite. And there's just a certain satisfaction to knowing that, should all else fail, you could code a website in NotePad that just can't be beat.
One thing I do miss in DW that I loved in HomeSite was that the preview mode of HomeSite would let you test JavaScript. You could actually see the page as it would look. It's just a minor annoyance to have to hit F12 all the time and pop up an external IE window to see if your javascript is screwed up or not. Especially if you're as bad at javascript as I am...
100% of our web sites are completed using Dreamweaver - because it is EFFICIENT to so do.
Sure it has some limitations, but for a web designer who needs to design web sites QUICKLY that 'meet customer expectations' in order for the pay check to arrive SOON - it is unbeatable.
Think it throws too much surplus code around?
Use layers and download the free extension Layer2Style - it dumps all the DW layer positioning into as CSS in the <head>, from where you can cut and paste it into an external style sheet.
Note: DWMX still allows you to edit these external style sheets easily.
The end result is a TIGHTLY coded set of html pages, with a slightly messy external style sheet, which you can clean up at your leisure.
It might be a UK thing, but I know far more web designers who use Dreamweaver than hand code.
I admit that most of them use it in default mode - and sure it produces sloppy code, but that is their choice, not a limitation of Dreamweaver.
Now all you hand-coders out there are going to tell me you can do it by hand quicker and better - good for you.
The point is I can't do it quicker by hand, nor can plenty of others out there - as for better, I disagree. I CAN hand code if I need to, and DW allows me to do it fairly easily - if I don't like the unbuilt html editor, I can call up an external one - no big deal.
Its also often quoted as one of the significant reasons for reluctance to switch to Linux - no DW for Linux:(
Its a personal choice - if you prefer to hand code, do so - if you want an easy life with sloppy code, use DW - if you want to be EFFICIENT use Dreamweaver AND learn to hand code as well.
I have a feeling that Dreamweaver may be most suitable for graphics artists who want to crank out the occasional Web site.
4eyes I don't think anyone is trashing it. If thats how I came across then I apologize. I like Dreamweaver. I just do so much data driven stuff these days that using it consistantly is not an option. To say that all development is done in dreamweaver is just untrue, and that is the point I am trying to make.
Cleans them up on my machine when I shut DWMX down. I do remember that problem. Homesite also had that problem.
translation:
I have become so dependent on DW that I no longer know how to write HTML and wouldnt have a clue what DW is doing to it. So all i can teach you guys how to use DW, not to create webpages and write HTML.
Still what do you expect a graphics teacher to know about HTML anyway?
This is a bit like using a statistical analysis program to do complex things like factor analysis without having a clue of what the results actually mean.
So all i can teach you guys how to use DW, not to create webpages and write HTML.
IMHO, it comes down to finding a balance. I've been using DW for years, but my expierence with HTML came from learning to write raw code in good ol'notepad.
That's why Dreamweaver is such a powerful tool.
Using DW saves time and money for web professionals with several projects on the go.
A knowledge of the raw code behind the "design view" enables developers to quickly fix bugs or errors.
I would never teach someone to use DW without teaching them about the code that is being created behind the scenes.
- Chad
Welcome to WebmasterWorld, Dragonlady7.
What do you guys think of GoLive. I am very fearful that if I do use it, it will end up being like a Front Page nightmare with all that extra ishkibble.
I have been using HotDog for years but it just does not have enough of the new widgets a GOLive has.
Ready Aim Fire....
Let me hear it.
I think you can download trials of each one, can't you? Give 'em a shot, poke around, load a sample page and see if either one does things you're not happy with to the code. That's my advice. They're both freakin' expensive, but probably worth the money. (I think they each currently cost $400 or so, so price isn't a deciding factor.)
instructor stated that no one uses HTML anymore
Dreamweaver doesn't replace HTML, it generates HTML. HTML (generally) is the language that web sites are written in - You use DW or FP or another editor as a tool to output the HTML for you, instead of writing the HTML character by character by hand in say, Notepad.
Dragonlady: But you have to know HTML to use it really effectively
This is what it comes down to. If you don't understand HTML you're going to run into something you can't fix, or can't do, or can't figure out, simply because you don't understand what is going on behind the scenes. IMHO anyone who is going to build sites should learn about HTML aside from whatever editor they choose to use. (look at CSS too)
When I started out I built my first sites in Notepad. Now, I use DWMX + Homesite depending on what I need to do. As tools go, they make it quicker, easier to get what I need to do done.
LisaB
Sorry my bad, I wasn't 'squaring up', as they say.
I meant my post to be a 'spirited, but humourous', defense of DW - re-reading it, I guess the humour was, err..."under-emphasised"
Maybe it should have had a few smileys in it :)
Yeah, its insane to teach Dreamweaver instead of HTML.
Teaching both makes more sense.
I do switch back and forth between code view and WYSISYG view, or do the split screen. But it was the template feature of Dreamweaver that caused me to abandon Notepad in favor of Dreamweaver. It saves me endless amounts of time when I need to update hundreds of pages at a time.
Last month, I wanted to start learning more about server-side development with Flash, so I picked up a book or two. I also want to be a professional graphic designer late next spring, so I figured there's nothing more for it, I have to learn HTML and Dreamweaver. I bought a student version of Dreamweaver MX, a Teach Yourself XHTML in 24 hours book, and a Dreamweaver MX Training from the Source book. A week later I'm finally comfortable with both HTML and Dreamweaver. CSS outside of Dreamweaver's WYSIWYG environment is going to require some more work and practice for me, (as is PHP/MySQL), but overall I'd say that both HTML and Dreamweaver are elementary stuff.
Student versions of Dreamweaver MX are priced at $100 US. The books for Dreamweaver and XHTML are another $50 US used at Amazon. If you're taking college courses for this sort of thing, any money that you spend on hardware, software, or training is going to be a drop in the bucket compared to your college costs and will be well worth it in the long run if you have the discipline to see the training guides through. Macromedia's pricing is especially easy on the student pocketbook when compared with Adobe's.
After you get that done, you can use a good editor to modify the code.
But it was the template feature of Dreamweaver that caused me to abandon Notepad in favor of Dreamweaver. It saves me endless amounts of time when I need to update hundreds of pages at a time.
Then you can bring the modified page back into DW and save as a template.
1. Web Designer - This person is very big into DW. They are usually a "graphics artist" by trade, and are or have moved into the web world. They view a web site as a bunch of static pages, with at most minimum server side dynamic logic. The site is usually viewed as a dynamic brochure. Function (many times non-existant) Follows Form.
2. Web (Application) Developer (I'm in this camp) - This person thinks of a website as being a server side dynamic application with static elements. Most have been developing web sites for years with a text editor. Tools like DW are seen as a rapid prototyping tool. They usually have a very firm grasp of HTML. They use the WYSIWYG GUI for the comlex layout portions of a site in the begining of the development, then move the project into a high end text editor, or programming language centered IDE for the rest of the development cycle. The site is usually though of as window to content, manytimes coming out of a database, or dynamically generated by some other means. Form (sometimes ugly) Follows Function.
For people of type 1, they manytimes view Dreamweaver as the only relevant tool. For hardcore dynamic site development, DW is a tool in the toolbox, which is of helpful, but limited use.
There is a third type, "Web Programmer", who I left out. These are historically computer programmers by trade, now using a web browser as their interface. I ignored them for the purposes of this discussion. Same thing with people learning web development, with no other related background.
-Pete
1) Graphic/Web designer, a person who is heavy on the visual side and uses all the automated tools like slicing with spacers etc and who rarely if ever uses the code view.
2) Web Designer, someone who uses the code view and WYSIWYG together to create tight, aestheticly pleasing, cleanly coded web pages.
3) Programmer, doesnt use DW because they think that it hinders them from "true coding".
1 = nice to look at, poor code
2 = quite nice, pretty good code
3 = less visually appealing but coded very well
