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I hope you all are fine and in your good health. Can you tell me what does "coding by hand" mean? Actually I am new in this web designing world and have no idea about the web designing terms.
- could this be the result of WYSIWYG metaphor makers? ;o)
I use an advanced text editor for writing code. It's fast enough for the work I do, and it allows me to keep an eye on the project.
For large image maps I use an old copy of Cute Map Maker (some old apps can't be improved upon) to generate the code, but the convolution I deal with 'by hand' and eye.
Save for Web image optimization in Photoshop is pretty nice, pretty tempting to use all the time.
For coding (html, css, scripts) I stick to Edit++ and its templates, cliptext, and auto-completion.
OK, an analogy - depending solely on your WYSIWYG is like shovelling the walk with a snowplow.
Code layout is more important than some of you suppose. Your work may be disposable but it just may survive as legacy.
My contribution to the bumper sticker wisdom:
1. It's good to know what you're doing.
2. What you don't know might actually kill you.
3. "I don't have time" crashes airplanes.
T
<Chuckle>
>>"I don't have time" crashes aeroplanes
I Like it. Might use that one next time my boss asked to do something now!, this minute!, yesterday! :)
[edited by: limbo at 6:12 pm (utc) on May 7, 2003]
A page is not simply done, to meet expectations, and i never work on it again.
I am contstantly, re-working, adding new features, cleaning up problems in code/page.
So it behooves anyone who has to work with the code, to make sure it is easy to read and understand.
Also to make sure it sticks to standard html.
I love css and dhtml and javascript, but I hand-code everything, not out of any desire of superiority. But to make sure it gets done correctly.
Because if it doesn't, i have to go back and fix it?
Do you take pride in your work?
Or do you hunger for the next project, and can't wait for it to be done, and hope to never have to look at the code you just created again?
Right now I am working on adding new features to our shopping system to affect our discounting procedures.
But the code is humongous, and ill-written, that it inspires me to try really hard to communicate my thought.
I think the real thing we are aiming for, is if you are a part timer, or just in it for the money, or if you are a craftsperson.
Someone dedicated to become the best in their field, and make absolutely sure every thing they produce is high quality.
We all can reasonably produce good looking pages, but how easy is it for other people to have to make changes or modifications?
Or how easy is it to figure out what all the different sections are, what each part does?
What kind of standards do you require in your work? I mean do you create your own projects or are they handed to you?
Do you have expectations for how that work assignment gets formulated? or Defined or explained?
Think about it!
The common herd uses these things, like a 4-yr old uses training wheels on a bike or an amateur artist uses paint by numbers kits.
Do you yourself a favor. Learn to do HTML markup in your sleep. It will set you apart, maybe even make you a real pro.
Code layout is more important than some of you suppose. Your work may be disposable but it just may survive as legacy.
My work has nothing to with HTML code. My work involves writing and editing.
When I write a book or magazine article, a production person loads my WYSIWYG word-processor file into a WYSIWYG desktop-publishing program like Quark XPress. The DTP program generates the required formatting codes. That's the kind of work that computers and software were designed for--whether one is typesetting a book or building a Web site.
Again, there's nothing wrong with hand-coding if that's your hobby or if you can get paid for it. But for many of us, coding is just a necessary evil--and as for me, I was happy to give up hand-coding back in 1996 when I realized that the Web was evolving from a techies' playground to a new publishing medium.
<ul>
<li>you don't need to take our hands off the keyboard (and I'm a two-finger typist)</li>
<li>you'll write simpler code (since we need to look at it).</li>
<li>and you'll get fast just from doing it everyday</li>
</ul>
<p>You need to know HTML whether you write code in Dreamweaver or Vim, so what's the difference? And once you add some simple server-side scripting to include your global headers, footers and navigation elements via external files, sites get built faster and are easier to maintain. Plus you can edit sites from anywhere - just with a terminal and a live wire.</p>
<p>The point I'm making is that hand-coders don't necessary do it just "because we like to tinker under the hood". I just don't want a newbie reading this and thinking in such broad generalizations (is it fair to say that pro-WYSIWYG users know nothing of HTML?). Ultimately it's just a preference thing. Yes, there was a learning curve in the beginning. But it's worth it IMHO... spiders see your code, browsers see your code, and there's no better way to learn than by doing it by hand.</p>
<p>This post was written without the aid of a WYSIWYG... was that so bad? :-)</p>
<? include("footer_nav.inc");?>
My point: When it comes time to create dynamic sites, if you can't at least code html, you will not go far.
you don't need to take our hands off the keyboard...
I actually think that's a disadvantage. I say that as someone who had severe hand and wrist pain a number of years ago after too many years of typing many hours a day on electric typewriters and, later, on PC keyboards in the pre-mouse era.
One of the great things about Windows and WYSIWYG programs is that you're encouraged to take your hands off the keyboard now and then. It's a bit like using a manual typewriter, where you have to reach up and whack a carriage-return lever at the end of each line. Those little breaks don't sound like much, but I suspect they make a difference. (I never heard of carpal tunnel syndrome in the typewriter era; it wasn't until I spent my days writing in WordStar and XyWrite that I had a problem.)
Fortunately, I salvaged my wrists (and my writing career) with help from the Maltron keyboard. Anyone who thinks coding by hand is tricky should try switching from being a 103-wpm typist on a QWERTY keyboard to using the proprietary Malt layout on the Maltron keyboard, which has been described as a keyboard that somebody left out in the sun on a hot day:
[maltron.com...]
It may look weird, but it works. :-)
Later I flirted with Net Objects Fusion, HotMetalPro, and then early DreamWeaver. And then I discovered Homesite and never gave WYSIWYG another thought.
Homesite is a powerful editor - so I'm not really a purist. When I want an image inserted in the code, I click on the image file and Homesite gives me a wizard to write the tag. It even pre-views the image, so I'm sure I picked the right one.
Actually, I needed to write an image tag by hand the other day, and I had to think about it for much too long...maybe I should go back to NotePad.
maybe I should go back to NotePad
I can understand every preference one could have in this discussion except for this one. ;) Why would anyone want to use NotePad? It's got to be the clumsiest text editor in the world. As I remember, and it's been a while since I've used it, it doesn't even retain defaults, so you've got to turn on word wrap every time you use it.
There are bunches of text editors out there, any one of which is better than NotePad. I use NoteTab Pro, which I highly recommend. Perhaps many here, when they mention NotePad, are referring to it as a figure of speech, meaning 'just a basic text editor'... but I can't help reacting because I've cursed the program every time I've ever used it. </rant>
...want to use NotePad? It's got to be the clumsiest text editor in the world. As I remember, and it's been a while since I've used it, it doesn't even retain defaults..
Believe it or not, I like it!~ Word Pad adds a teensy black square where the line breaks are, but doesn't break the line..so every time I get someone's plain text file done in anything but notepad, I usually have to backspce those little things out. GRRR.
Reason I posted is..I decided to check what revision I have because I know it does retain the default word wrap, and I think you're right, it didn't used to.
Clicking on Help > about Notepad, I didn't get a R for notepad, I got a splash for Windows ME, and this horrid announcement:
Physical Memory Available to Windows: 129,548 KB
System resources: 61% free
Lol. Looks like I can't afford the resources to open up a WYSIWYG editor - no wonder I use notepad!
~Dian
(who knows this is pretty off topic)
DLadybug: go download Textpad [textpad.com] or something similar (you can evaluate it for as long as you like before you decide to pay) - I promise you'll never look back!
Syntax colouring makes life sooooooo much easier.
Cleaner Interface, that means less gui or gunk to get in the way of me looking at the code I am working on.
It has powerful capabilities, it's just those are hidden, in the keyboard,mouse commands. And are not in the interface...
For me this is about being a craftsman. Someone dedicated to their craft. I totally respect anyone who does that.
Because someone who is a craftsman, or woman, will never put other people in the situation of having to clean up or fix their work.
As someone mentioned it is good to understand what you are doing.
It helps you to know HTML code more Markup, so then when you meet some bugs you can go back the HTML code and correct or tweak
I think every young "web developer" should spend some time understanding html/xhtml before jumping over to the editor.
There are bunches of text editors out there, any one of which is better than NotePad.
I totally agree - I use one of them and have it set as the application for all the "text" extensions, including my server logs, .ini files and so on.
My remarks were meant to be humorous. At this stage of the game, Microsoft should be ashamed of their default text editor.
tedster - I know... I hope you'll forgive my rhetorical opportunism, but I couldn't resist. I did include a winking smiley face....
Homesite is a powerful editor - so I'm not really a purist. When I want an image inserted in the code, I click on the image file and Homesite gives me a wizard to write the tag. It even pre-views the image, so I'm sure I picked the right one.
That may one reason why I never really took to HomeSite (or to HotDog Pro, the first HTML editor that I used back in the mid-1990s). If I'm working in HTML mode, I'd just as soon have a blank screen--either Notepad or FrontPage 2000's HTML view--and enter the tags by hand. And if I'm going to use dialogue boxes, wizards, buttons, or whatever, I might as well go all the way and use a WYSIWYG tool that lets me focus on editorial content.
In a way, programs like HomeSite remind me of early Windows implementations of DOS programs. They take a clean interface and load it up with icons and other goodies that distract from the business at hand. I was a WordStar and XyWrite user back in the days of DOS, but when I switched to Windows, I changed to Word (then known as "Word for Windows") because it was designed from the ground up for productivity in a WYSIWYG environment.
I do use HomeSite for one thing: extended search-and-replace operations. HomeSite's extended search-and-replace feature works so well that it's reason enough to have HomeSite installed on my PC.
BTW, there's one other very important reason why I prefer FrontPage to hand coding: It's far easier on my eyes. When I'm writing or editing editorial content, reading text that's surrounded by HTML tags is very tiring. FrontPage's WYSIWYG text display is very easy on the eyes--even more so than Word--and I'd use FrontPage for that reason alone even if I liked coding by hand.
ie. Point and click, Drag n' Drop, click something & something else pops up to be filled in etc.. it's primarily a VISUAL,(graphically) orientated design software package,(even when it may have some options to allow hand code tweaking).
Editors that SOLELY allow for the insertion of text into your code and have no visual design component are NOT Wysiwyg... Ability to preview your website from the editor program does NOT make it wysiwyg... nor having color coding, some nice forms of auto completion, or some easy click to paste in template html TEXT.
This implies that you can utilise a fancy editor & still be a hand coder :)
I use notpad for quick previewing/modification of a potentially buggy, in need of small tweaking, page/script from wsftp when I have something that I need to check/modify & my ftp program is active,(it's usually already pointing to the directory the file of interest is in also,[server or client-side] so it's a quick click to view, as opposed to doing a directory browse for the file & opening etc.).... I code my html & scripts in a full blown text editor designed for website creation tho :)
Hand coders ULTIMATELY & mostly utilise editors that DO NOT try to interpret what the web designer is trying to accomplish & seek to add other tags etc... they simply OBEY... do EXACTLY what the web designer intends,(even if the web designer is making some mistakes)... they do WHAT YOU TELL THEM PERIOD! - Some will notify you of perceived coding errors, but THEY WON'T automatically modify any of your code.
Wysiwyg editors often add many more tags than is necessary to your webcode & make it a nightmare to read if they have code that's browser incompatible and requires hand modification, or you just wish to quickly teakout a section.
Even if you seek to do some hand tweaking of your webcode in a Wysiwyg editors source code feature, after you've tweaked what you wish too, the editor will then try it's hand at SUPPOSEDLY keeping your code nice & again add some MORE redundant tags, modify what you have just inserted and/or do some more non standard rubbish to the code.
Wysiwyg editors GENERALLY seek to interpret/GUESS what we are trying to do and without even checking with us they then go about changing the webcode. - Sometimes just loading a well designed, CLEAN, html page into a Wysiwyg editor to quickly change a little bit of NORMAL TEXT and then saving will result in the wysiwyg editor adding a whole heap of it's own tags and other rubbish to the code before saving... maybe even breaking the html for certain browsers.
REASONS TO HANDCODE: [PROVIDED you know what you're doing]
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BANDWIDTH COSTS,(from hand cleaning just one of my mates webpages that was designed purely through a Wysiwyg program,[think it was DreamWeaver from memory] I cut it down in size by over 60% & it became eminantly more readable, to the point that it was able to be easily, later by myself, turned into a template for future creations of his, where all he now need do, is place a copy of it in a directory of it's own with an images subdirectory for images and a few normal text files that get called into this html template page now via ssi.... So with hand coding the html he no longer needs to do any html for most of his stuff, just upload the images to the image subdirectory and write a little normal text in some text files and upload them to the base directory where he has the template... nice huh,{looking at the diehard "I'LL WYSIWYG MY GRANDMOTHER EVEN,.. IF I WANNA!" people}).
SPEED,(smaller filesize implies speed increase)
EFFICIENCY IN MODIFICATION,(meaning being able to find what you wish to change & being able to simply & easily change/update/[or whatever] to it)
DOESN'T BREAK SOME BROWSERS WITH INCORRECT OUTPUTS,(assumes during your web design process that you atleast test both Netscape 4.7x & IE5+ .. if works on them then hybrid Opera & all else generally work AOK)
SPEED OF WEBSITE DESIGN,(assumes dynamic site & a library of your, or anothers, premade intergratable code,[perl, standard html via ssi, php, js, whatever].... the more you hand design the more resusable code chunks, if written thoughtfully, you will accumulate over time for later speed in designing future websites)
CODING VERSATILITY
If you know your html then you might wish to use something like what I use, in Arachnophilia,(a pre-java, .exe version) if coding in WinIHateThisOS.
Yet to find a quality Linux editor with PROPER wordwrapping feature, as opposed to dumb hard wrapping. {sigh}
Arachnophilia has the syntax highlighting for multiple coding languages & for html has a few buttons that you can click on if you're lazy when it comes to writing some basic tags, like for tables, forms, imgs, links, or whatever... just click and it will spit out the bare html code in TEXT into the editor for you :) - I don't personally use these buttons for template code insertion... Again, you're not forced to do anything the programs way... It's at YOUR beck-and-call, not the other way around as with Wysiwyg editors :)
Most I believe use Wysiwyg editors because they are not very proficient yet with the basics of coding in html, others know a little and are oblivious to the pitfalls of Wysiwyg editors and some just feel that,(whether or not they know enough html to seek to look to hand code) that they don't have the time or inclination to do some initial hard yards to get to build their pages/sites by hand coding.
If you have a Wysiwyg editor that doesn't break browsers with the pages it outputs,(you need check each page created... some may be fine... others may not,[same as if you're responsibly hand coding your work... always test it properly])... If your bandwidth costs are negligable, the website loading speed is quick enough for your dialup visitors, you're not seeking to modify the page once finished to any major extent in future,(and not going to seek to have another do it) and you aren't seeking to have the pages or website you create as truely dynamic, maybe just a few rollovers and/or a banner rotator, then by all means use Wysiwyg if you like.
If your pages load fast enough and aren't broken, most surfers won't care what you use for designing.....
Just remember the points I wrote above and think about whether Wysiwyg is the best way ahead for your future development, or whether you should maybe now, early-in-the-peace, start learning html more in-depth & seeking progression to the next levels of coding, xhtml with ssi, some perl/php, MySql, etc... fully dynamic sites & maybe even fully automated where they recreate themselves on a daily basis :) - Then you realllllly have speed in creation over Wysiwyg users .. hehe :P""
Later, RIPP.
I use Vi like I do notepad when on Linux or have ssh'd into my USA webhost for quicky stuff if that makes you feel a little better... lol :P"
RIPP :)
There are other editors, that are free, which do this just as well.
Learn to code by hand. Set yourself apart from the common herd by learning (X)HTML through and through. Once you do you will know what we are talking about when we say how much better coding by hand can be.
Most of the complaints about added tags and code come because people do not understand CSS and are trying to use inline styles (let's make it bold, no, let's make it italic, wait, let's change the font) and they do not understand the programme thoroughly (keyboard shortcuts, preferences, various panels and right-clicks).
I can't comment on Adobe and Microsoft products but in general, like anything, Dreamweaver gives you rubbish out if you put rubbish into it. Learn how to use the programme properly (Snippets panel, for example) and in code view where necessary and you should have no problem getting validated accessible xhtml pages (if that is your wish).
Disclaimer: yes, I know that some of the proprietary javascript is not wonderful, but there are alternatives (or the abovementioned Snippets panel).
Coding by hand is way much better as you say :) .. but I feel many will miss out on this understanding as even if they have the ability to venture into real web design, will continue to stick with the PERCEIVED quick & easy approach, supposedly afforded to them with the current crop of Wysiwyg editors.
Just look at how many people stayed with IE and how Netscape lost major browser market share once Microsoft fed users IE with the OS.... Most people are too lazy to research or download the good stuff - sticking to their comfort zone.. what they see or hear about the most, or what's already on their systems etc..
Anyone running MSOutlook should be shot! ... Probably most of you reading these forums still run this, viral/spam creaters dream, rubbish EVEN when you know it's rubbish and you shouldn't... complacency.. {SIGH}
RIPP :)
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Quote from stever: "..like anything, Dreamweaver gives you rubbish out if you put rubbish into it. Learn how to use the programme properly.."
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Concept of the basics of Wysiwyg editors is that THEY should produce clean & valid code even without you needing to delve into any source code modifications.
[Above was initial basic concept of web Wysiwyg editors, now some are trying to hybid themselves more by allowing some modifications to the sourcecode itself, sadly most are failing to do this adequately & mess with your code, or it's surrounding code, once you've finished your modifications when last I checked]
When talking about Wysiwyg editors producing rubbish were not even talking about complicated pages having been designed and their final sourcecode on a visual inpection having junk in them... Even the most basic pages generally are filled with junk.
If you are simply dragging and dropping images, links, tables etc., onto a workspace and the program isn't saying that you've missed filling in some data and links you input are in correct format & valid etc., then the GENERATED code,(lets assume it's 100% syntactically valid & displays correctly) that is made by the Wysiwyg editor and produces rubbish in the sourcecode, in excess & redundant, totally useless tags etc.. can NOT be attributed to us inputting rubbish.
Sorry Stever... that argument of Rubbish in, Rubbish out, can't hold water when in reference to a web Wysiwyg editor where what I have written above has happened.
Rubbish in, Rubbish out, is generally related to how a program cannot be expected to output meaningful results when the data giving to it is invalid or incomplete etc.. The data given to a Wysiwyg editor is validated for correctness & completeness by ITSELF,(because data is input via dialog boxes & dropdowns etc.) before being passed further on down the generation pipeline, if invalid it will/should spit out a dialog box etc., stating that and why it's invalid and ask for a new lot of data to be input etc.... But simple drag & drops where users need input NO DATA by hand, just simply click boxes, radio buttons, comboboxes for number of fields etc., that the Wysiwyg editor supplies as choices and where what little thing is built and running functionally as 100% valid,(lets assume) html and yet on inspection of source has the rubbish in there.... well you can't blame the user of the package... it's the software that has failed to create the code correctly.
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Quote from stever: "Most of the complaints about added tags and code come because people do not understand CSS and are trying to use inline styles (let's make it bold, no, let's make it italic, wait, let's change the font).."
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Most "true" handcoders complaints about added tags from Wysiwyg editors IS perfectly valid and correct.
Can't comment on latest incarnation of DW for instance,(since I don't use it & haven't sought to fix anyones code of late) but doing a simple table and NO CSS, just a basic table in it as a simple example,(and other Wysiwyg editors I've tried) would result in lots of stupid useless tags being added to the webcode in the past.
Looking at the code for nesting and compared to the same indent rules being used between a clean,(no fancy tricks) handcoded page and a Wysiwyg page that has tables you'd notice code areas in the Wysiwyg source being like an extra 3 to 4 indent levels deeper in than the handcoded page... Implying LOTS more junk code was added.
I HANDCODE.......... Would love to have been able to use a PROPERLY designed Wysiwyg web editor, if it worked like, for instance, Borland Delphi or C++ Builder, BUT THEY DON'T... they touch things that they shouldn't, they add things that obviscate the code with no added benefit to page loading speed, code readability or even re-usability.
I have in the past tried Hotmetal Pro, Dreamweaver, Netfusion objects and many others and all of these either lacked power, versatility, non IE browser friendliness, etc.. and IN ALL CASES added lots of extra rubbish tags......... All except Netscape Composer,(from Netscape Communicator 4.XX line)... which provided you weren't seeking to do anything with frames or something that hadn't yet been accepted when the 4.XX line was designed would only seek to,(for some unknown reason) occasionally add a few extra BR tags to an area that had a couple of BR's already for instance.. so maybe you'd have 5 in a row instead of 2.... a quick and easy thing to fix tho :)
But if you know what you're doing & know how to design resuable code/html etc., then handcoding is faster and just simply can't be touched in terms of quality of design, by code, speed & ability to design page with a longer user lifecycle,(pages can easily be designed with template structure in mind and simply be included into the REAL pages that users see) etc..
I suppose you could call yourself "SOMEWHAT" of a handcoder if you were to design a page in a current web Wysiwyg editor for the starting code for your site,(get a rough look to the site) and then hand cleaning & tweaking it before it goes live.... HOWEVER, if you are doing both all through the design process of your site/page until it's live then you're NOT a handcoder.
Being able to write the odd img tag, or from a Wysiwyg editors source editor, or even from notepad, being able to change a url in a tag for instance, doesn't mean that you know how to handcode either.
I don't know you Stever, or what levels of html or css you currently understand, but below are my basic definitions of a HANDCODER & a WYSIWYG User.
- I try to avoid accidentally calling a WEB Wysiwyg User a "Coder"... for they usually don't follow a design & testing stucture that I would consider consistant with a true CODER,(web or otherwise).
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A STERIOTYPICAL HANDCODER: [The steriotyped one knows what they're doing, not simply a newb playing with html in notepad ;)]
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* A handcoder can code a website from a simple text editor if they wished it with minimal code syntax lookups for something they forget the correct structure of...
* A handcoder NEVER uses a design package that modifies their code without their EXPRESS permission,(set in options, or coming from a popup "do you want too.." etc.).
* You can be a handcoder and get the basic layout of a page designed from a Wysiwyg editor, or from some old webpage that you THEN proceed to remove non-essential tags etc. and check over the code thoroughly as you continue to code up to the designed page structure.
* Handcoders NEVER trust their code before having tested it multiple times,(even when they KNOW it's correct).
* A true handcoder, CAN make some dumb mistakes in coding their pages... BUT they also do test their pages on MULTIPLE browsers for compatibility,(sometimes even with browsers on different operating systems also) and I'm not talking of simply different IE versions! .. As such any coding mistakes that affect the ability of the page to function correctly are found and fixed in time before a page goes live.
* Handcoders test their code locally & when uploaded to the web.
*** Upload final version for going live.
*** Check final version uploaded cleanly and that it still functions correctly.
====================================
A STERIOTYPICAL WYSIWYG USER: [The typical one,(in my eyes,{whether they know how to code any HTML etc. or not})]
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* Provided it works in the Wysiwyg package it's code is 100% correct.
*** Upload final version for going live.
*** Don't need check anything... did it all with a Wysiwyg program.
====================================
LATER RIPP :)
Enough to consider using margin, padding or line-height properties rather than multiple br tags ;)
....but I don't understand the prejudice here. The fact that I can set up an xhtml-compliant page with a complicated table structure (although I don't tend to use them anyway) in a very short time is enough for me (and it adds _no_ unnecessary code unless you set it up to do so i.e. define values for padding, width, etc).
Checking in multiple browsers - I can do that within a click from DW.
Checking for accessibility - ditto
Checking for compliancy - ditto
Checking on remote server - ditto
Checking O'Reilly definitions - ditto
(But now I've seen the light and will write all my code in future on marmot-skin manuscript with ink made from the tears of Tyrolean virgins.)
I still use HomeSite, but also use Dreamweaver - because it's quicker and I'm in business so time really is money... (and for Mischief: Vi on the server, even Pico if I'm stuck with it)
But nothing substitutes for the understanding you gain by learning how to hand code - being able to pick it apart and understand how it works can make all the difference.
That said, I guess it really depends on your role in the process but I find it's invaluable.
LisaB
If your pages load fast enough and aren't broken, most surfers won't care what you use for designing.....
Precisely. My readers don't care if I create my pages in a text editor, an HTML editor, or a WYSIWYG tool. What they *do* care about is finding reliable information that's pleasant to view and easy to read.
AS one of the last remaining coldfusion purists aka handcoder, it is so nice to hear that I am not totally alone.
So many CFers strictly stand by ColdFusion Studio.
I could not even imagine coding, not using my beloved tool, textpad.
All of this, these labels, really don't matter.
The core of it all, is what I call the craftmans code, or how we live.
We want to really, really, really, make sure the end result is something we can be proud of, and make absolutely sure, we don't have to ever go back and fix something, because we were in such a rush to get it done.
Everytime I rush a project, and don't plan it out, man, it just self-destructs.
I don't know if this is an idea for another thread or where to post it.
But how many of you plan out your coding projects before you start working on them?
Just my curiousity.
