Dreamweaver MX

Now for Hand Coders?

[madcat]

Hi Everybody--

In the past, I have struggled between using a WYSIWYG editor like Dreamweaver, and straight up hand coding. I enjoy making Web sites and have learned from folks that only use notepad, textpad and homesite...homesite, my text editor of choice.

I've been barraged with stories of how Dreamweaver is able to expediate the process of designing Web pages tremendously. Of course, on the other end of the spectrum, I heard that Dreamweaver produced terribly messy code that required constant cleaning and it prevented you from learning the code well.

I just downloaded a beta version of Dreamweaver MX and see that it comes with a Homesite Coder-style layout. This thread isn't meant to spark a debate on whether to use Dreamweaver or not -- I've started a Web based business recently, and wanted to ask somebody who knows the difference -- do you find Dreamweaver a great time saver in producing Web sites?

MX also brags about its clean code (XHTML, XML, CSS) a definite bonus -- With that Coder-style layout, I suppose one could just hand code everything and take advantage of the Library, FTP and Flash components if nothing else ::

What do you think about this? My stubborn attitude may be receding.

Thanks for any insights...

[msgraph]

I'm looking forward to trying out the new line of Macromedia's products. I haven't read up on much of them lately but if they are bragging about clean code, I'll have give them a try here soon.

But yeah, I use WYSIWYG's all the time to do the basic layout process. It just makes things go a lot faster and easier. After that I'll just pull some global find and replace patterns to clean up any added code.

[Laisha]

I handcode in DW4. It also allows for WYSIWYG. Or both.

I hesitated to try it because I'd heard the learning curve was vast, but that turned out to be untrue.

[papabaer]

Madcat, I downloaded DreamweaverMX yesterday... only got to "play" with it a bit, but my first impression was it put too many layers of "GUI" between me and my code.

I just got the impression of a mega-swiss army knife, equipped with all sorts of doo-dads when all I needed was the "knife."

I, likewise, used to handcode using DW4, but stepped up to the no-nonsense power of HS4, then HS4.52 and now HS5...

For me, everything I need and want is right there... I have found nothing faster, nor easier. I have all the "tools" and conveniences close at hand, and a no-nonsense editor that treats my code with respect.

I'll be giving DWMX a thorough go... but it would have to be INCREDIBLE to make me change my current toolbox.

[SmallTime]

I redid a site in xhtml by hand in textpad a few days ago(15 pages or so, external css), opened it up last night in dreamweaver MX and it displayed perfectly, all css available. I was impressed. Lots of new little features, looks like compliance and accessiblity were on their mind.

[Purple Martin]

Like others, I use Dreamewaver for initial layout and then Homesite for all the rest. I haven't seen DreamewaverMX yet but I saw a demo of FlashMX at a Macromedia user group the other night. If Macromedia have put as much thought into DreamewaverMX as FlashMX then it'll be great. I've also heard that it has Homesite-type editing, so that'll save me having to switch between the two all the time!

[BlobFisk]

I've been playing around with Dreamweaver MX for a day or so now and have noticed that it does far less messing with code than Dreamweaver 4 did.

It still insists on adding line breaks everywhere that there is no need for......

All in all it gets a thumbs up from me - you need a big monitor though... 17" just doesn't cut it!

[NFFC]

The most productive DW setup I have found is to have duel monitors, WYSIWYG on one and the code window on the other.

[backus]

I use Dreamweaver UltraDev 4. Wouldn't use anything else.

[SmallTime]

MX integrates ultradev, that is it is the upgrade to it also.

[kevin_m]

I was hand-coding for a while and a few months ago started using DW4, because a site I was working on used the template system for updating and maintenance. I also found it just sped up my production time and makes maintance much easier. I ended up buying UltraDev for the backend capability but never used it because I just found it easier to the database stuff by hand. I was a little dissapointed by this because of the extra money I paid for ultradev

But I have been using the DW MX for a few days and I am really impressed with it. I am psyched that it now supports the xhtml and hancoding seems much easier. Also when you do an update with the templates it does it in have the time. It is a bit heavy on the gui but it so far I don't mind it.

[4eyes]

Well it answers most of my CSS requirements.

Big thumbs up from me (so far)

[txbakers]

i adore Dreamweaver and UltraDev, but I guess I use it like most here. I set the initial rough layout in DW then use Textpad for final editing. If I need to mess with tables again I go back to DW.

Except for a few javascript oddities, I find the code to be quite clean.

I'm looking forward to MX.

[AlbinoRhyno]

I used textpad, then graduated to Homesite (4.5x -> 5), and I must say I am not that impressed with DMX. Like it was said above, it is overkill for handcoding. It is almost distracting. Of course, now that the majority of my sites on php/mysql driven, my coding is way down and I don't want anything more than Homesite's spartan layout.

[caine]

I am into dreamweaver and fireworks, and have been for a couple of years, though i use notepad for template work.

Look forward to MX, if it does not add all that unnecessary code, that can't get a relatively simple html page validated.

[moonbiter]

IMHO, and as others have mentioned, Dreamweaver MX is close to being bloatware. Lots of features on lots of menus, lots of which I will rarely, if ever, use.

It's buggy too, but since this is just a preview release that's to be expected, so I can't fault Macromedia for that (still, some of the bugs are funny -- for example, it will occasionally and spontaneously add ending tags to elements your cursor touches when you arrow down through your document -- hee hee).

The CSS display in WYSIWYG mode is better, but still disappointing. It can't seem to represent positioned elements very well at all (at least as far as I can tell).

I hope they don't axe Homesite and send it to the great underground dirt party. Surely they understand that you don't need a nuclear arsenal like DMX to build every simple site? Surely they see that there is a market for a lighter weight, code-only XHTML editor. Right?

Right?

[DrOliver]

The CSS display in WYSIWYG mode is better, but still disappointing. It can't seem to represent positioned elements very well at all (at least as far as I can tell).

This is an understatement. The bad, very bad CSS display in WYSIWYG mode is the reason I won't buy DWMX. They have some time to fix that, but I doubt they will. I am extremly disappointed by that fact.

[4eyes]

The css may be bad-ish but its still miles better than it was. It is now correctly displaying my css fluid 3-column layout, which makes life easier.

I have only found one wysiwyg editor that shows all my css correctly - and that has flaws in other areas (sticky me if you know any that do).

Got to say that the price is ridiculous, if the money was coming out of my own pocket it be well down my list.

[DrOliver]

It is now correctly displaying my css fluid 3-column layout

Are you @import-ing your CSS?

I have a two-column layout and a <div> that is supposed not to be displayed when @import is understood, and my copy of the DWMX Preview Release messes up quite ugly.

What I like though is its support for XHTML and accessibility features.

[4eyes]

DrO

No - not importing - yes it messes up big style when I do.
(I am browser sniffing for NN4)

[txbakers]

Got to say that the price is ridiculous, if the money was coming out of my own pocket it be well down my list

There will probably be an educator price available like all MM software. If you, or your spouse, or your kids, or your neighbors kids, or your uncle's kids are involved in any way with education, you would qualify.

[Thors Hammer]

I use dreamweaver ultradev 4 also, fireworks etc.... I like them very much. I have found them to be VERY usefull tools. I too started out handcoding everything, but I tend to utilize these programs alot. Very versatile.

I have used Frontpage also, and alot of shareware WYSIWYG's. :)

Thor