Forum Moderators: not2easy
I forgot to send a printout of my main page, but maybe I can send this tomorrow separately and just ask them to attach it to the application?
But -- and this is also from experience -- you don't "have" to include a printout of your web site. I've obtained and renewed my copyright with only a CD (and a check) accompanying the application form.
ownerrim said:
So, what then, is a DMCA complaint worth?
But the DMCA has been a wonderful thing for me. The thieves frequently won't give their victims the time of day, but the hosts are now legally on the hook: they have to do something (once informed of the possible infringement) or be held guilty themselves. E-mailing (or, sometimes, such as in the case of Yahoo!, snail-mailing) a dispassionate DMCA notice has been extremely helpful for me. Most infringements come down inside a week.
ownerrim said:
It was somewhat difficult to track down, actually.
send2paul said:
Write his boss a long letter stating your case and pointing out what other actions you may take against his company if the employee concerned doesn't adjust his website....
Eliz.
It doesn't require any great research. Find out what clubs they belong to - and go spoil their party - as they are evidently spoiling yours.
The bottom line here is that you are potentially losing traffic and business to this page thief - so the gloves are off - whatever it takes to get the offending website adjusted - just do it.
p.s. Eliz - whatever it takes. Even if an employer does not want to get involved in any kind of dispute like this, the fact that an employee of his has, (perhaps - only by the virtue of a letter turning up in the mail with ALL the evidence), being doing something that could be, at the very least, constituted as being suspicious - may well be enough for the employer to enquire/take action against the employee.
Find out what clubs they belong to....whatever it takes. Even if an employer does not want to get involved in any kind of dispute like this, the fact that an employee of his has, (perhaps - only by the virtue of a letter turning up in the mail with ALL the evidence), being doing something that could be, at the very least, constituted as being suspicious - may well be enough for the employer to enquire/take action against the employee.
How far would you take this "clubs" thing? Would you sue his bowling league? Would you create a scene at the guy's mosque/church/synagogue? Show up as his neighborhood block-watch meeting?
On what basis, legally, do you feel that employers, churches, clubs, and other aspects of the guy's life -- people who have no control over this guy's private activities -- should be held responsible for what he is doing?
Eliz.
I'll be candidly honest with you. If the infringer wasn't an attorney, I would be more hopeful regarding complaints of infringement. But there's always the possibility that this guy could try to tie me up in a counter suit just to bleed money out of me.
In doing some research the last couple of days, I found a lot of complaints about DMCA from free speech advocates. I myself am a big advocate of first amendment protections. But I think the anti-DMCA crowd is addled. Web content is stolen so routinely that it boggles the mind. I have spent at least a thousand hours in the last two years developing this site and for someone to swoop in and try to stab me with my own content makes me incredulous.
Eliz... if someone is attacking my online business I would do everthing I could,(within my power, if I could be bothered), to ensure that that person ceased his activity. A lot of people who set up small business websites do not have the wherewithall to go through the DMCA procedures, and other online regulations and activities - but they do know how to write letters. I was pointing out to ownerrim one direct route which could be taken which is not complicated and requires no great skills other than writing a few letters.
"You really believe that an employer has the responsibility to control an employee's private life?" - no.... and then you go off on one and totally miss the point. The point is this - if an employer thought that one of his employees was less than scrupulous in any kind of activity, (whether it be business related to the employer's business or not), the mere presence of potential evidence which throws a question on the employees honesty & integrity may get the employer to question the employee - which may result in the employee re-adjusting his offending website - and the objective is achieved. (These situations do occur in the offline world y'know).
"How far would you take this "clubs" thing?" - a generic term which you've taken out of context from the meaning & tone of the sentence. I possibly confused you here, as I meant "clubs" i.e. professional organisations related to the employer. And, as I stated in my original post:
1. Write them a long letter stating your case.
2. (If no reply to 1.) Write his boss a long letter stating your case and pointing out what other actions you may take against his company if the employee concerned doesn't adjust his website, (such as contacting memebership organisations the company maybe a part of, regulatory organisations that the company is signed up to etc).
3. (If no reply to 1. or 2.) Carry out the actions detailed in 2. - and write a further letter to both employee & employer informing them of what you've done.
Basically - if the employee and employer refuse to acknowledge your existence, then you can take it to the next level - professional organisations related to the employer.
It's all about raising awareness of the initial problem - the employees piracy of your webpages. I don't expect a sure fire results with these tactics, but writing a few letters as an offline solution - and a more direct approach to people seems to me to be easier than trying to deal with online solutions such as DMCA which you may be unsure of and are not even certain that the "employee" will even get notified of anything, when they'll get notified, and how you can track the result, and how long the whole process will take.
A letter, (or two), is simpler, quicker & more direct and is likely to get a much quicker response.
p.s. okay - they're not employer - employee, (as I've just read), but the principles still apply.
]So, what then, is a DMCA complaint worth? I'm not sure if it's worth anything at this point.
It is a legal tool. As a legal tool it also has responsibilities when you use it.
For him to claim that I illegally interfered with his business, I think he would have to show that I misrepresented the infringement, that I filed a DMCA claim in "bad faith". I did not file it in bad faith.
If you file a DMCA, and he contests it, and you then do not proceed to file the copyright infringement lawsuit, then it could easily be argued that you filed in bad faith.
You have started a process. That process will continue till BOTH parties or the courts decide that it is over.
You mentioned that his partner is an attorney, well you better consider getting your own before you push it any further. He knows the rules of the game already, and doen't have to worry about what it costs to fight, only what it costs to lose.
2. (If no reply to 1.) Write his boss a long letter stating your case and pointing out what other actions you may take against his company if the employee concerned doesn't adjust his website, (such as contacting memebership organisations the company maybe a part of, regulatory organisations that the company is signed up to etc).3. (If no reply to 1. or 2.) Carry out the actions detailed in 2. - and write a further letter to both employee & employer informing them of what you've done.
Well, this here is what you call a "very bad plan". You could easily turn a civil case against someone else into a civil an criminal case against you.
The only thing you really have a right to do is to contact people to try and find this person to serve papers to, unless you can find some way to legally connect them to the infringement.
Do you have any idea what the damages can run up to in a case where you interfere with a person's employment? It would be quite possible that the state court could force you into bankruptcy before the copyright case even makes it through discovery. Then you might no longer own the copyrights that you are suing over.
Not to mention, you will most likely piss off the judge in your copyright case. You would probably still win the case, but the judge has a lot of discression when it comes to the award of damages.
I suspect that if overrim were to ask his attorney friends about your advice, they would tell him the same thing, "DON'T DO IT!"
Actually, Eliz, the two of them are not employer-employee.
send2paul said:
if someone is attacking my online business I would do everthing I could,(within my power, if I could be bothered), to ensure that that person ceased his activity.
"Within your power" could, to take an extreme example, be taken to include "hunting him down and shooting him in his sleep". His "activity', online and otherwise, would certainly cease at that point, but one would hope that you would accept the possibility that this might not be an advisable course of action.
send2paul said:
I meant "clubs" i.e. professional organisations related to the employer.
I'm sorry, but the guy's private life, however distasteful it might be, and whatever your opinion of it might be, is not the owner's business.
send2paul said:
they're not employer - employee...but the principles still apply.
Eliz.
I hope ownerrim that some of my comments/suggestions were of some help, or at least provoked some thought for a possible avenue to go down for resolution to your problem. I do hope you get the guy to remove the copied content from his website - as this is what this thread started off talking about.
Good luck.
Have you ever noticed how news reports always use qualifying words when they talk about anyone in relation to a crime? "The alleged robber", "the bombing suspect", "the convicted pizza thief"? That is because there are defamation laws in every state in the union, and just about every country.
There are a whole host of laws, in addition to defamation, you might be in violation of with just a couple of letters. Depending on the state laws, you could be up for harassment, stalking, or if you work it right, you could even get brought up on federal civil rights charges. If you tell them you are trying to get money out of the deal, deal and they might bring up the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act.
The legal system has been set up to offer you what is concidered "the right way" to do things.What you are suggesting is definitely viewed as "the wrong way".
thanks for all the commentary. this thread was extremely helpful.
I have requested that yahoo withdraw the notice of infringement and they emailed me back to say they would. I have faxed a request for google to do the same and I am also overnighting a letter with the same request.
My complaint was and is solid and was made in good faith. And I have sent in my app to the library of congress and will do that every 2 weeks to ensure that new content becomes copyrighted. But I will also attempt to tread lightly here too and weigh things out in a measured fashion.
One of my attorney associates has a friend in california who does nothing but intellectual property cases. I will seek a consultation with him.
[edited by: ownerrim at 12:58 pm (utc) on Aug. 18, 2005]
it's not thuggery - it's a couple of letters.
Okay, don't call it "thuggery". The authorities have many other names for this sort of behavior; choose one of those.
Eliz.
I have withdrawn my DMCA's and been referred to an intellectual property attorney by an acquaintance of mine who is the senior partner of a law firm and also happens to be an old friend on of the IP lawyer. My acquaintance tells me, from what I showed him, the case is stronger than I thought, clearly predatory, and I shouldn't have a problem. Apparently, the IP lawyer will be able to, for a very reasonable fee, send a contextually-crafted (full knowledge of IP rights)to the infringer that points out the infringement. At this point, who knows, I may be willing to throw 30 or 40k into a federal court suit as long as I know I'll get it back in the form of costs awarded.
It will also be helpful in keeping the attorney on the other side from bullying you.
Another advantage, is that you will now have an established relationship with an IP lawyer, which can give you a significant advantage when dealing with future issues.
I thought that same thing and I am sure it will happen again.
If you change the content in such a way to make it original it then becomes your property.
Would you kindly define (or at least clarify) what you mean by "change" and "original"? In particular, how does your statement not contradict the fact that the original owner's rights include the right of derivation?
Thank you.
Eliz.
Stolen content is content you don't have permission or consent to use from the owner.
First off, you cannot "steal" content, you infringe on a work.
What you are talking about would be correct as far as the owner of a copy of a book, not the holder of the copyright on the book. Not realizing the difference is a sign that you do not know what you are talking about and should refrain from giving advice.
Second, Copyright does not give you the right to grant or deny permission to "use". It has nothing to do with the right to use, it has to do with the limited rights over reproduction and distribution.
If you change the content in such a way to make it original it then becomes your property.
No, it becomes your property when you aquire a copy legitimately. But the copyright holder still maintains his copyright which includes derivative works.
Depending on the type of work, getting past the derivative work issue is as easy as changing the words or sentence structure, or it might be as hard as not even being able to use the same characters as in the original work of fiction.
You will be granted copyright in you new derivative work, but to copyright holder on the original will also have a controlling copyright on the work and can keep you from distributing it.
