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He's been on Overture about 3 years. His industry is pretty small.
Seems someone in his sector just discovered round robin anonymous proxy agents.
The number of clicks on one term that on average over past 3yrs would take 1 month to get...
Was all used up last night.
Even if OV would refund his account end of month the problem is that due to the agressive click fraud:
He went to add funds and everyone knows OV requires X amount to last a certain time period.
That amount was over $1000 just to initiate the account again.
So, even if OV was to cross check the competitors on the term and do good by him eventually, he cannot afford to stick about 1 months worth of fund into the account knowing full well, someone will clcik fraud him again.
This is not news to me at all. In his sector though not many technical minded people.
Not very bright either...if you wanted to attack competitors- why draw attention by clicking what you know to be a month worth's of clicks on a term rather than slowly bleed them out by say, adding 1/3 the normal clicks per day over time?
Anyone go to SES or the PubCon ask Google/OV about these proxy agents?
TIA
AW
They are interested in growing their business - and retaining customers :) not in having them get upset & leave.
I'm sure that Google would do the same. They are interested in $$$ both of them - and if a client doesn't get any "value" for their marketing dollars, both companies know that they would flow elsewhere.
>>>>rotating proxy software
The weakness inherent in the system, though with some proxies, additional http header info is passed which can be parsed & detected - I imagine that OV already built into their system the necessary precautions to catch these types.
The fully annonymous ones, however, can never be stopped - it's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid.
Even if you are low tech indeed how hard is it to connect via the same client machine, 3 different browsers, and then 1 via AOL (masks your IP) one through cable internet, and then another through a 3rd random dial up provider with a proprietary browser. :)
It's all too easy to do this, I'm afraid. Talk to OV & they will take care of you if you are spending enough $$$ the response will be quick - if the spend isn't that great, the response may take longer, but they *always* take action on this type of thing.
<added> take a read through an HTTP specification like an RFC - then you'll begin to really understand the truth of the situation that OV / Google will *never* be able to fully automatically track & prevent or credit this type of action / behavior.
Besides - you don't need to talk to one of these companies or attend a conference to learn that :) just post away here and I'm sure you get the info you need. lol
</added>
He has already contacted customer service.
Problem is that he is not willing to start the account again because OV uses an extrapolation of clicks and requires at least 3 days worth now?
Haven't been on in a while.
That "3 days" required to restart the account is in fact, over one month worth of funds due to the click fraud.
So, even if/when he gets his money back they 'won' because he isn't willing to put 1 month worth of money knowing he can be 'raped' again.
Typically, he has spent between $1000 and $5000/mo with them...but overall, on average it's close to $1000-$1500/mo. So, not a big spender from OV's point of view.
Even if you are low tech indeed how hard is it to connect via the same client machine, 3 different browsers, and then 1 via AOL (masks your IP) one through cable internet, and then another through a 3rd random dial up provider with a proprietary browser.
I actually ran some tests a while back to probe for that sort of thing. Even got an AOL account just for that test.
I was generally pretty impressed with OV's handling of things. BUT, I didn't have a dial-up account. That could make a big difference.
Typically, when the IP changed, the click was registered. I found it pretty difficult to click fraud myself using just AOL and multiple broswers.
OV did NOT automatically credit my account for the 12 clicks I knew came from my own system end of month. I dropped my bid to 10 cents before doing this of course. :)
I have not been on OV in a while. But, i track my log files in great detail. Click frauders will usually just click the link, wait until that one page loads then leave and repeat.
While one can use this analysis to a degree- it's pretty tough to pin things down.
It's all too easy to do this, I'm afraid.
Sure- if someone really wants to...they could knock a competitor right out in no time flat.
Last time I brought this up I got a sticky from more than one person offering to pay me good money to teach them how to use the stuff we are talking about.
I declined the offers. I've been hurt by these practices personally and you can never know what industry people are really into.
Talk to OV & they will take care of you if you are spending enough $$$ the response will be quick - if the spend isn't that great, the response may take longer, but they *always* take action on this type of thing.
I don't handle his PPC account. He does. But yes-he's taking all the action he can.
In the meantime, he's out of OV. I'll post back with an update here to explain what happens.
I think many folks here have similar situations.
<added> take a read through an HTTP specification like an RFC - then you'll begin to really understand the truth of the situation that OV / Google will *never* be able to fully automatically track & prevent or credit this type of action / behavior.
I'm with you. Same with Affiliate Clicks...if not worse.
Besides - you don't need to talk to one of these companies or attend a conference to learn that just post away here and I'm sure you get the info you need. lol
</added>
True. But would like to see someone squirm in their seats as they initiated thier rehearsed corporate double speak for such a question. :)
Ironically, their industry is small enough so that the same people are always in the top 4 spots. they had come to an agreement about a month ago to price fix the top bids.
It's becoming more and more difficult for an average small business person to make a go of things on the Internet.
I feel a bit bad for those folks who are just starting out and want to 'do it on thier own'.
Thanks for the reply.
Regards,
AW
Try having a read through it -> afaik, we (as marketer's) though have a great need to know how good their systems are, we are not supposed to go probing their systems with false clicks to see where the tracking systems fall down.
Though - it's funny to see it happen. And yes, sad that it does.
Seeing one of them present & squirm as they answered a tough question while it could be funny - what if you build a positive relationship with your account representative with them - I'm sure the way they treat you will be much different.
Or your client. Perhaps if you charge them a fixed % of their spend to manage the spend on OV - you can build the relationship yourself? Then the next time this happens, (it usually happens a lot more than we realize) you will know somebody that can help you.
Even though all advterisers that use OV give them $$$, not all have the same relationships in place. Or agencies, for that matter.
Relationships, in business, can be quite powerful as well as lucrative.
Bottom line is that he's just not using OV anymore. He'll just keep AdWords. The clicks there often bump him to Premium listings.
Even though that will go away soon it's the lesser PPC evil. :)
If not for Google waking the updated pages from February I did- top 3 and #10 for most important.
He's one of those folks where one phrase is pretty much all the traffic.
Now #10 where he was 3 and #162 where he was #10 on every datacenter prior to Google PR0ing the updated pages.
So, overture is no more for this client. At least for now.
AW
Overtures answer on every case was the exact same email word for word, to each of them saying get lost, our system is perfect and we see no evidence of abuse.
I have advised these clients to stop using Overture and are looking at alternative methods of advertising. Their ROI does not cover the abusive clicks on their accounts. I would advise anyone else to do the same because, quite basically, why should Overture bother solving click spamming - it puts money in their pockets and there is always plenty of other mugs to fill Overture's purses.
At least when it happens with Google, they do re-imburse my clients accounts.when I produce the server logs.
Regards,
Richard
After everyone starting comparing notes (E-mailing the competition) it came to light that there was an article speciifc to their industry in a popular offline journel (WSJ).
The majority of clicks were Sunday EST. :)
Client initiated the OV account again. It's back to normal levels.
So, they were in fact, all valid clicks.
The power of PR!
OzzyOsborne: I had them forward all OV E-mail. That was pretty much what OV stated...everything was normal. They grouped up and all reported the same thing and OV is know looking into it more closely.
They learned of the WSJ article after the E-mails were sent.
I guess the lessons learned here is that it's good if one can stay on good terms with competitors. Communication is always helpful.
Also, what may very well appear to be massive click fraud could very well be the power of Public Relations.
An article in a mainstream media oulet is very powerful. One of their competitors who had the account to auto renew reported 3 MONTHS worth of clicks that one Sunday.
Regards,
AW
ADDED: Client just informed me that OV added the total cost of clicks to his funds. No e-mail of explanation. It's good to harp on them. :)
