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This hurts a lot of local (Thai) companies. Also as an advertiser with Overture I am amazed about the lack of ethical standards, after all Overture is very quick on denying keywords for some reason or another. Practices though like double bidding for top spots does erode overture's reputation for fair advertising.
[edited by: Woz at 7:38 am (utc) on Mar. 11, 2003]
[edit reason] no specifics please. [/edit]
I can see that Overture has a problem to handle here - and I've run into it too, much to my frustration. I also recognize that it's a challenge for Overture to detect when one business sets up multiple domains, especially if their Whois info is anonymized in some way.
Even if Overture is just struggling towards a solution, it would be a good move on their part to make a comment. I think the long term health of their business model depends on handling this.
I don't expect any business to be perfect, just to do what they can. I should have thought of this question while at the SES in Boston last week. At least there we were face to face with a rep.
Interesting. Can you send me the search terms in sticky mail?
What do you mean the pay Expedia and Orbitz to block 2 other spots? They have listings with them and direct the URL to Expedia/Orbitz listings on other bids?
tedster,
What could OV do, especially if they are companies outside the US? Even if they took down thier ads, people like that would just set up new domains and submit again.
Interesting.
AW
What could OV do, especially if they are companies outside the US? Even if they took down thier ads, people like that would just set up new domains and submit again.
I don't have that answer, but for the long term health of their business model, Overture does need to have one, just as they created very complex security againsgt competitive
clicking.
They might begin by at least making it harder to supporess competition - check the Whois records for advertisers and not allow the same keyword to have more than one bid from the same owner.
Of course that's just barely a start - but it is their business model after all. The protection of it is their job.
I checked out what you sent.
Indeed- the WHOIS info is the same for both those domains.
That is bad, but you made it sound as if they were making it impossible for you to get into the top 3.
They have the #3 and #4 spot for that first phrase you sent me.
If you wanted you could bid either $1.90 and be #3 on that paying just one penny over the current #3 - your bad guy.
They also have an 8 cent spread between #3 and #4 positions- so you can get in between.
Are you statting they pay Orbitz/Expedia for thier listings too? I doubt it.
Not saying this is not bad- IT IS, but you can bid for #3 spot. This is a listing that shows 4 sponsored listings on Yahoo.
Did you copy and paste or send links to WHOIS information to Overture?
AW
I don't have that answer, but for the long term health of their business model, Overture does need to have one, just as they created very complex security againsgt competitive clicking.
Well, we've seen complaints about competitive clicking and will again. I'd like to test out how good their method is on 1 of my own 5 cent Grandfathered bids.
If I go over a friends house and use his AOL account..click me though Yahoo search on the term, then sign off AOL, and sign back on- repeat...I wonder if OV will sense that and not count it.
Also, playing Devil's Advocate:
I know a business who has people who are used to doing online survey's for small amounts of money.
They have access to about 20,000 people.
Say big office company #1 wanted to destroy big office company #2 via mass amounts of clicks.
People would have no problem clicking on two listings 4x/day for a week for like $5 for the week....or less.
Most are on dial-up and from all over the country. Unethical- sure- but could that ever be detected? To your competitor(s) they just get huge spikes in traffic without sales.
So, if one was inclined and had the money they could "muscle click" the other competitors away and they'd just think it was not economical.
With OV's new format to add listings- that method would shock people as far as estimated monthly costs.
They might begin by at least making it harder to supporess competition - check the Whois records for advertisers and not allow the same keyword to have more than one bid from the same owner.
1) Modify the WHOIS records.
2) Use friends/family/associates to register domains
3) set up multiple OV accounts with different credit cards. Business name/personal/pay freinds up front and get them to open an account.
Make 3 websites so that the look/feel is different and more approaches you have if you get slots 1-3 then more chance you have at success.
Allow folks to get into top spots now and again so as to not draw attention to a 3 way bid block.
Domains are cheap- and websites are easy if you design yourself or use templates.
PPC is ripe for schemes like the above. It may be goin on now- as we see from Webber's post- it is.
How much will OV care? They are just getting more money out of it.
Of course that's just barely a start - but it is their business model after all. The protection of it is their job.
Well, I can never prove it- but for sure I suffered competition clicks. I bid a very sweet spot for #5 on a couple broad key phrases.
For a week I had zero clicks...I didn't expect to get many at all...no surprise.
One morning I woke up and I had 7 clicks from both phrases! It was an expensive phrase too. :(
Was about 20% of my OV budget for the month gone from competition clicks. The category of phrase was similar- so I am 99.9% sure the person/company I bumped out of #5 was annoyed and they clicked me...got friends to click me- whatever.
I learned though. When I first went on- I saw some sweet spots on some phrases to get in the top 5 or 6 for those that list 6 (I have 53 terms in all), but just 3 I'm _really_ serious about.
When I woke up to those competiton clicks I reduced all my other bids to 10 cents. I was too worried I'd get more of the same on other phrases!
Yep- I'm a bit bitter but I learned. There is No protection from Competition Clicks on OV...maybe the big accounts can make a case- eventually...but for smaller accounts...we're on our own as Webber's post proves.
Sorry for the Soap Box. ;)
AW
Ironically, most advertisers cost themselves far more money in stupid bidding wars, poor tactics, bid gaps, lousy creatives, not deep linking and countless other things, than their competition ever do.
I'd suggest that to win the "war" look at your own plan of action rather than worrying about what everyone else does.
I spoke to someone from Overture a few months back and they explained there was about 32 million searches that were unbidded. If you could find a few dozen of those for your industry that worked then you wouldn't have to worry about your competitor clicking on your ad, because they wouldn't know the word existed (or else they'd be bidding it). You'd be in splendid isolation getting all of the traffic, no worries about over-bidding, no being #4, no competition, no ROI issues (even at 10 cents a click)
If we see any click behaviour on ads, we just reduce the bid dramatically and let someone else take the flak. If the clicks persist then we'll remove the keyword altogether, leave it a while and come back later on.
Overture try to do the best to protect you, but it's a big boys and girls game, industrial espionage has been around for many years, that's what this sort of stuff falls under.
You could always outsource!
repeatedly reported it to them about a network having 7 different sites running on 1 search term
Overture have/did promise to investigate the matter, but the ads a re still running.
Espotting just said, "stop crying like a little boy".
at the end of the day people who do this sort of stuff end up paying WAY over the required price, and this makes Overture and the others a lot of money.
I doubt they have ANY intention of sorting this problem out, our contact genuinely tried to have the listings removed, but I think was probably over-ruled.
we can only wait for the future
Shak
It always disturbs me when people talk about this cloak and dagger stuff. It puts ideas in idiots heads.
I don't think too many idiots post here. They are all on link farms and underground chat and hacker boards. :)
I was able to find a phrase that nobody had- and got it Grandfathered at 5 cents. :)
AW
at the end of the day people who do this sort of stuff end up paying WAY over the required price, and this makes Overture and the others a lot of money.I doubt they have ANY intention of sorting this problem out, our contact genuinely tried to have the listings removed, but I think was probably over-ruled.
we can only wait for the future
It doesn't look very bright. Unless you are in a niche market and can get good traffic from specific PPC searches- we have Y! and we have Google.
I read here that Y! is tweaking their layout and may chage the way OV ads are displayed. I welcome this.
At the same time- the reason the top 3 are so important is because they ARE on top of everything.
Ya take 'yer lumps along with your clicks. that's the PPC world.
AW
I don't think too many idiots post here.
I agree, but you can bet your life that they read a lot of what is posted and do a bit of spin doctoring.
Whether it's 3 or 7 or however many, in most cases the model can't be sustained as the cost per acquisition must be silly money, even if you sell something that has ridiculous margins, these would be eroded in a competitive arena.
the cost per acquisition must be silly money, even if you sell something that has ridiculous margins, these would be eroded in a competitive arena.
I agree. While my situation was not the same as the original post, the situation did involve a bidding war.
I've been dealing with a competitor with an agressive campaign and have been using a variety of techniques to keep his spending up, while minimizing mine. Part of the strategy also involved letting other bidders do the fighting for me on less important phrases.
The result is that this bidder all of a sudden pooped out and disappeared (the same day the Overture Monthly summary came out last week!).
Their "ferocious stay at the top campaign" lasted around a month and a half and I think they finally took a look at their bill, took a look at their sales, and the concept of ROI finally sunk in.
