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PR6 but low ranked

what could be the problem?

         

eLogo

7:06 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hello to all,

Well, I have a new site that is indexed in this, November, update (first crawled in the beginning of October).
I`ve got PR6 and have 176 backward links.
The problem is my low position for main keyphrase. I`m on 89th place, and have a bunch of PR5/4 sites/pages in front of me.
And when I search with "allinanchor: my main keyphrase", I`m 15th.
Also, I have good content, keyphrase in title, keyphrases in alts,...
I`m so desperate, don`t know what to do, what to change,...
Anyone experienced something similar?
Please, help.

HuhuFruFru

7:13 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I have exactly the same problem: A two-month-old site with PR5 and 282 backlinks after this update, about 200 pages indexed, each of them on one certain keyword or keyphrase focused. Before the update my site had a PR0, but did much better on my keywords than now.

My old PR0 brought me much more traffice than my new PR5!

leef50

7:36 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



General optimisation. Title keywords appearing as close to the top as possible and usage of <H*> tags makes a huge difference.

I can make 1 subtle change to my site and disappear into the basement of the SERPS for my keywords. The freshbot is great since you can make some changes (make backups) and see how it affects your position.

LeeF50

HuhuFruFru

8:14 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



but my site IS optimized, I have done EVERYTHING what brett has told us to do... what about you elogo?

eLogo

8:23 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Well, I have a relatively long Javascript in my <head> tags. If that could be the problem..
Maybe my keywords could be closer to the top,...

bobmark

8:25 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



There's one thing I noticed that may relate to this. A few keywords - alone or in phrases - exhibit different behaviour from most others. This is especially true of major terms in very popular areas. If you are checking on a phrase involving one of these you may experience atypical and confusing results.
In my case, I do great for Fuzzy Blue, great for Fuzzy Blue Widgets Country, terrible for Fuzzy Blue Widgets. Some of it is due to aggressive spamming by sites on highly competitive keywords, but some just seemed to appear in the September update and is unique to certain keywords.
There was major discussion about it in the Sept update thread; it tends to be associated with the type of keywords you would use in your "classification" Meta.

buckworks

8:29 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Consider moving the javascript to an external .js file. This would position important content closer to the top (always A Good Thing). Another benefit is that if you use the same script on multiple pages, an external .js file would make things a bit faster for visitors surfing around your site because it only needs to be uploaded once.

eLogo

8:40 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



thanx for suggestion, buckworks, I think I`ll do it.

eLogo

8:44 pm on Dec 2, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



One more issue.
I`ve noticed yesterday google showed first version of my site (made in the beginning of Oct) as a cache, and today it shows the second (not the latest) version. And all this with same ranking.

whats up skip

3:24 am on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



elogo I think I found part of your problem.

The majority of links to your home page seem to be from guest book pages. From what I understand (in the English language Google) Google effectively discounts the value of these links to nothing or they may even count as spam.

You need links from pages that relate to yours via topic.

Page Rank is only one factor and it seems to be less important in the last few months.

Catnip

6:28 am on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



buckworks,

How does a .js file work? Can you plz give me an example. Do any browsers NOT support an external .js file?

Thanks,

Ryan

eLogo

9:05 am on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



skip,
well, yes, the majority of links are from guestbooks, but the most important and with highest PRs are links from normal sites and directories. I have just a few of them but they are PR6.
Also, the competitors have the same situation with that.
I think I`m worth at least 2nd page :), not 89th place.
Anyway, I think I should try some good topic-related link exchanges, and change some things "on the page" while freshbot is crawling.

Whoa

11:07 am on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I have the same problem. I come up #1 to #5 on most keywords I care about, but on the main keyword for the category, the one I care most about, I was 140 on the last index and only bumped up to 70 in the new index, despite getting quite a few new good inbound links. (In addition to inbound links, the content is quite good for the category.)

I have a PR of 7, which puts me at #4 in the Google directory for the relevant category. Still, on the search for the main keyword, many pages are above me that have a PR of 5. Some probably legitimately deserve to be above me, but most don't.

Like you guys/gals, I'm clueless as to why this is happening.

MeditationMan

1:29 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



For the last update, I looked more closely at the sites ranking above mine, and saw that they all had links to relevant sites on their index pages. I followed suit and went from #13 to #10. Of course I also gained some links, and increased KWD, and those things may have made a difference as well.

But I'm still finding that there are sites above mine with lower PR, less content, and fewer links. It puzzles me.

HuhuFruFru

1:50 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



googleguy please help us! what's wrong here?

stever

1:55 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



>I'm still finding that there are sites above mine with lower PR, less content, and fewer links. It puzzles me.

But of more relevance?

PR alone won't do it, nor will unfocussed content, nor will the number of links.

kfander

2:21 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



That is certainly the case. I have a PR6 site that routinely places below a PR4 site, and others of my sites place ahead of higher-rated sites. We don't know exactly what the Google algorithm is, of course, but I'm sure it's better the way it is (for the searcher) than if it were based purely on PR.

eLogo

7:05 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Well, kfander and stever, in my case...
I have totally focussed and topic-related content. Let`s say my company is widget company and my keyword is "widget".

MeditationMan

8:05 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Stever:

But of more relevance?

I think my site has more relevant content than the sites above me. We're all offering info on "widgets", and I have way quality, relevant content than any of the sites ranking above mine.

Let's take an example.

I'm at #10. The site at #5 has 75 pages dealing with "widgets". Mine has 387. He has 278 backlinks; I have 790. I have PR7, he has PR6. His index page has KWD of 17.65%. Last month when I was #13 I had KWD of 18%, now I'm 25.77% (sounds high, but it is a content-rich site and doesn't look spammy).

He does have the keyword in his domain name, which I don't. But heck, does Amazon have the word "book" in its domain name? Does google have "search engine" in its domain name? Surely that can't count for that much?

He may have the keyword in a higher percentage of anchor links than I do because of the name thing, although I have so many more links that in absolute terms I have the keyword in a higher number of links.

I went up three places on the last update, possibly because I bumped up the KWD, and gained 70 backward links, including from new material I'd posted. I'm regaining lost ground, having dropped from #7 two months ago. I guess I can just muscle my way to the top by continuing to add more content, but I reckon I should be #3 by now anyway. I'd love to know what, if anything, I'm doing wrong.

The site at #5, incidentally, was down during the update. He'd exceeded his bandwidth allocation! Now that he's back up he has an annoying popup on several pages, and flashing adverts. Apart from that it's a very nicely designed site.

BigDave

8:29 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



eLogo,

You need to cut your keyword density. You might even have to cut it below what you would consider normal. Your site mentions "widget" in almost every sentence.

You also need to concentrate on keyphrases more than keywords. They are easier to get a good ranking, and you will probably have a much higher conversion rate. In your case, "widget" could give you a lot of traffic that is totally uninterested in your services. "widget design", "corporate widget design", "widget services" or even "widget creation" would be better goals for you. Let everyone else have "widget" for now, go for the easy pickings first.

In the mean time, while you are working on those other keyphrases, and actually increasing your sales from that effort, you will almost definitely find yourself creeping up in the "widget rankings.

eLogo

8:54 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



BigDave,
actually "widget design":) is my main keyphrase. Maybe, I mentioned keyword somewhere, but I meant keyphrase.
And, I don`t think I have high KWD. I have about 370 words, and 20-25 times "widget", 17-20 times "design", and of that I have together "widget" and "design(s)" about 10 times.

stever

9:59 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Without getting into site reviews in these threads, I think a suggestion raised recently is very valuable - sometimes we all can't see the wood for the trees on our own sites.

It can be worth getting an independent eye to have a look over our cossetted creations for things that we are no longer able to see because we have looked at them for so long...

instand1

10:39 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



BigDave is right: cut down your KWD. Even 18% was to much. With such a high PR you can afford to be nearer to normal language.

eLogo

11:05 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



You all think that`s the main reason of my low ranking?

MeditationMan

11:13 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Instand1:

cut down your KWD. Even 18% was too much. With such a high PR you can afford to be nearer to normal language.

Probably good advice. Thanks.

My competitor is at 18%, and five places above me. Last month I was at 18% and 11 places below him. It's a tough call.

My current KWD is actually "normal" -- in that I didn't give any thought to KWD when I wrote the content of the page, but just wrote what I wanted to write and gave links appropriate names. Three months ago I was worried that it might be looked at as spamming, so I cut back from 25% to 18%. The result was a drop of six places (although that could have been caused by something else). So I put the text back the way it originally was and this month went back up three places (again that might have been due to other factors).

I suppose it's possible that I might have gone up more than three places this month had I kept the KWD down. It's hard to know. I can't do a controlled experiment since Google changes, as do other sites. But I'll try cutting the KWD to a lower level and see what happens. I'll keep other changes to a minimum to avoid complicating the issue.

Thanks for the suggestion.

buckworks

11:43 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Regarding external .js files -- here are a couple of tutorials I found useful:

[web-source.net...]

[earthweb.com...]

Others may be able to suggest more recent tutorials.

I usually use external .js files for things like search boxes, newsletter sign-up boxes and drop menus that appear on multiple pages. Use external .js files only for items that are not important as "spider food".

So far as I know, all browsers that support javascript will support external .js files. If a user has javascript turned off, then external .js files won't work. The usual considerations about planning for users surfing without javascript would apply.

BigDave

11:43 pm on Dec 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Keyword overuse is a common problem in many didifferent forms of writing, just because it is what the writer is concentrating on.

Sometimes you can just cut the word out, or replace it with a pronoun. Often times it is best to try and rewrite the entire sentence a few different ways. Create your own thesaurus of words that you can use interchangeably. Mix up the singular and plural. If your keword has a verb form, use it too.

annej

12:03 am on Dec 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I am still trying to figure out how much is too much key word density.

I have list of links at the bottom of a page that sends people to the other (all related) pages on the site. It makes sense to list them like this.

red widgets
blue widgets
green widgets

red
blue
green

wouldn't make sense at all

But if it is hurting I will figure out a way to avoid the repitition.

Anne

BigDave

12:09 am on Dec 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Annej,

Instead of removing the word "widget" where it makes sense, try adding some content that will reduce the percentage.

Also remember that at least while searching, google views "widgets" and "widget" differently.

annej

3:50 am on Dec 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



If I use the search engine world's key word density analyzer I come out with

16.43% on my top single key word
25% on the 2 keyword phrase

That is leaving the settings as they are.

When the meta tags are excluded I get

19% on my top single key word
32% on the 2 keyword phrase

Is that way too much?

Anne

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