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I often see what the competition are doing, what clients thay have and how they're performing, and then trying to reverse engineer their results so I may learn 'glasshopper'. Trouble is I'm seeing too many spammers getting away with it, especially on google.
The first SEO at snipped appears to be hiding 1x1 pixel links invisible to naked eye on their clients home pages. The link then goes to a 'links page' that simply list ALL their client's keywords in the form of links, therefore boosting their link network and doing very nicely thankyou in Google - I want it stopped or I'm going to start myself because it's simply not fair.
THEN there's another v big company snipped, they offer a package sounding like a latin dance. Now their site shows no PR BUT it's bragging on their own site how they're performing so brilliantly on google for all their clients - I mean it's taking the whizz!
Can somebody please explain all this and help me with my anger management so I may level the playing field and improve my succes on Google. I'd like advice, solutions, who to moan at Google, and what do others do about this problem.
Thank you for letting me get it off my chest :)
[edited by: NFFC at 7:31 pm (utc) on Aug. 19, 2002]
[edit reason] Company names removed [/edit]
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Also stick around because some of the most knowledgable people in SEO are here and giving out secrets. I wouldn't let these spammers get to you. They will be filtered or banned sooner or later. You need to decide where on the line you want to be. Are you an angel, devil or just naughty. Most are right on the line crossing it a little. The more advanced SEOs will admit they are spammers from time to time. While still others do very well with their halo over their head. It just depends on what tactics and risks you are willing to take.
Sometimes its tempting to pull out the old "foot wedge though". ;)
SEO is a Search Engine Optimizer, though depending on if you work at the engine, it may be Search Engine Obfuscater ;)
(but don't call it spamming, instead you could use keywords that relate to your site, that wouldn't be spam.)
I don't have a problem with spammers per se but I do when the top ten are filled with unfair and downright underhand tactics. These same tactics that are, spouted from every mantra I've read, very dodgy and never to be undertaken.
Google says "Google may permanently ban from our index any sites or site authors that engage in cloaking to distort their search rankings."
and that other SEO company states "[We]Cloak the *latin dance* sites so browsers are immediately re-directed straight to your web site."
Are you guys on the inside? Or is there some unwritten gospel of SEOs that I've never heard? Because for a well respected forum (and thanks korkus2000 for the welcome) I expected the lot of you to wanna tear the throat of the wolves in sheeps clothing and help rid the SEs of banned tactics.
I guess it's a case of 'keep your head down and no one will notice'.
Well, I'm disappointed if that's true. I've never done anything close to spamming except offer good content and well constructed sites only to be bumped off the top. Well, it seems I better keep my head down from now on..I mean who cares?!
37 posts in your first 24 hours! :o
Not bad! ;)
There has been a lot of discussion on ethics on this board. SEOs can't have it both ways:
1) SEOs that can get clients listed at the top may use "spam" techniques. Some feel this is unethical.
2) SEOs charge clients for getting listed, but don't perform to their expectations. I think this is unethical.
There are of course SEOs that can get listed without doing "spam". It depends on what they want to do.
I just think it is funny - SEOs are supposed to use their knowledge of search engines to get listed higher. Why are some things ok and others not?
top ten are filled with unfair and downright underhand tactics
What makes something an underhand tactic?
I've never done anything close to spamming except offer good content and well constructed sites only to be bumped off the top.
You mentioned you are an SEO - the people that are hiring you are expect an SEO. How is what you do SEO?
I am not trying to be mean - it is just you wanted some answers and there aren't any that I think you will like. People will always do what they can to get listed as high as they can. You can either beat them using your tactics (which apparently isn't working) - or join them.
I can say that the tactics you mentioned are not very effective. Really good "spammers" do not use them.
You can moan to google, but they get plenty of moaning. the vast majority of complaints they get are from webmasters who have sites that they are losing to.
No regular user is going to notice cloaking (If done correctly) or 1x1 pixels.
Welcome to WebmasterWorld, Bareback... I'm sorry that the thread didn't meet your expectations. We keep a strange mix here, about 50/50 sheep-to-wolf ratio. As a consequence, we tend to leave the spam policing up to the SEs and directory editors.
That's what it seems to be all about. If you have heard of SEO, know lots about SEO, or try to SEO, you are trying to promote the site at hand.
If you don't, you could assume everyone else is spamming because your on-topic page is lost in the ranks.
Some "spammers" may be spamming more than others.
It seems the best we can do is determine what gets banned "straight off" and what you would consider downright dirty tactics. The rest would simply be "optimisation".
But as said, everyones opinion of this does not match at all. Even if SE's posted what would get you banned- people would take advantage, and if you didn't welcome to the flock of sheep :)
Ethics don't seem to apply to algorithm's yet.
/slightly OT
I seen a site with the title "life" that roughly focuses on the very thing. It ranks high for "life + totally unrelated keyword" though ranks much lower for "life" itself.
It shouldn't be there, and I doubt the webmaster would want the phrase that he ranks well under. Wouldn't say it's spam, but it certainly wasn't relevant.
Don't give up on this forum.... as a 100% self taught (most are) webmaster, I have learned more here than I could have ever learned in a classroom. I haven't always liked the answers and some I disagree with, but I certainly have a much wider understanding of web related topics than when I started out.
The incessant scratching and gouging for those top rankings seems to often blinker the SEO to the fact that the site may be at risk of being banned/demoted/bumped etc etc.
A responsible SEO will not jeopardise their clients interests with fast and loose SEO techniques.... there are others who couldn't give a st*** as long as their ego is being stroked by the magic #1.... and there is lots of variety in between.
Forget the Richard Craniums of SEO, set your own standards, draw your line in the sand and set out to be the very best there is within that framework. That will be far more rewarding and you will get even more satisfaction when you eventually see those spammers disappear in a single wave of Google's algorithm!
Unless it's a very competitive keyword/phrase PPC doesn't cost as much as u may think either.
I am equally frustrated by many of my competitors who use lame spamming techniques and have been getting away with it for ages. The fact is Google hasn't picked up on even some of the lamest techniques (like Javascript redirects to home from optimised index.htm file) for many of my competitors sites.
BUT, you have to ask yourself, can u afford to take the risk of getting banned? If you are offering SEO yourself, and your site's dropped for spamming, the answer must be pretty obvious.
I just sit here waiting for the day some of my competitor's sites get a nice blank white PR bar. Then I will smile, and probably smile again :-)
Please tell us what's the keyword?
Thus we are all "spammers" ;)
I'd dare say that more than half of the sheep here do a little "spamming" of some sort whether they consider it spamming or not.
Best adivce is to study your competitors as well as other competitive areas and put some analysis into why certain sites rank high. With the google cache as your friend, you can see a lot :)
Two hours later and there's still no keyword.
And we are going to keep it that way. Knowing the specific keyword contributes nothing to the general discussion. It only contributes to turning this forum into a Google spam reporting tool.
That's not our job here.
Still, I find it hard to believe that ALL top ten are utilizing out of control spammy techniques to be at the top.
To put it frankly, what I'm suggesting is that there may be some exagerration going on.
Don't:
Cloak.
Write text or create links that can be seen by search engines but not by visitors to your site.
Participate in link exchanges for the sole purpose of increasing your ranking in search engines.
Use programs that generate lots of generic doorway pages.
I hope that clarifies the situation a little.
As for those keywords that some are so desperately keen to find out I'm not sure how that will make a difference; in one instance there was no exaggeration that the top ten were using spam techniques. And so what if they are porn (they're not) they have as much right as anyone to rank correctly. Personally I wouldn't touch porn site SEO, that really is going to the dark side.
I don't get clients moaning at me they're not number one, I use ad words and PPC, but it costs more, decreases my margins and the point still remains some many SEOs are getting away with it. Especially when competing SEO companies brag about their client listings on their sites and you see why they're bragging - they're cheating.
I'm a purist, it may be sour grapes, and it's not bloody Golf, and it's not moaning, it's pure fact. It happens, and from the sounds of it by many of you.
It wasn't long ago many of you would have keyword stuffed to get the results but it just lowers the standard reflecting on all SEOs. You'd still do it if it weren't easily spotted by SEs. Which is my point, if the standards increase, content is king, results are driven by quality, then I'd be happy.
Thanks, austtr, my line was drawn years ago and I am successful at what I do - but fraud is fraud and there are a lot of cowards out there making hay while the algos let them. I don't suppose anyone would admit it, would someone care to register anon and fill us in; write a diary perhaps. I for one would love to understand what and why they spam. Maybe the forum moderators would care to open up a section for spammers to raise their issues?
There is no easy answer, but someone's gotta rant sometime, It just happened to be me. Sticky me to discuss in more detail - spammers too...you never know what I might learn.
Take care, have fun.....this is sooo cathartic...:)
All we're doing is trying to avoid techniques that may get us banned, or may reduce our ranking with certain SEs for techniques that are considered to be spam.
Toolman has it right, we are all spammers. That's what this forum is all about. It's about artificially enhacing the SERP of sites that don't perform as well as we'd like.
Playing within the rules is nothing to be proud of from an ethical point of view, but instead just makes common sense. For most of us the web is our business, so being banned from Google or any other SE could severely disrupt our business.
