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Is there a known fact about it?
should your title avoid to repeat a keyword even if it makes sense?
In the other hand Yahoo seems to accept them still and very well....
Experiences about it?
steveb-
"Use your title to accurately reflect the content of the page. It's called "title". It's not there to advertise your business or domain."
When I look through threads quickly and see your name I read your post. For me you have become a brand representing wit, perception and probably the best antagonist on the forum. If I did a search on google for 'how to write ruthless forum posts' and I saw a listing titled 'Ruthless quotes from Steveb' I would click it. However, if you just titled your page 'Ruthless quotes' along with all the other listings with the same title, I probably would miss your page.
You can't ignore branding potential on the worlds biggest advertising space (google serps) and let your page have the same title as hundreds of others. I doubt most users look at the actual domain name, they look at title and if you can become unique from the others in the serps with a recognised brand, you will stand out.
I'm surprised you would want your pages to melt into the anonymity of the masses.
Titles have many uses. In the maze of billions of websites, branding will only become more important over time.
I posted that you should embrace the uniqueness of the content on your pages, not noise intended to advertise inappropriately.
The title tag is for the title of your page. It's not to add noise. In your example, posts by steveb would *be* the content of the page. That would be what you would put in the title. Instead you are advocating to stuff widgets.com into the title. That is both inappropriate for a webpage title, aggressively anti-user, and a complete waste of electrons.
If your company detail or domain name is particularly relevant to the content of the page, then it is relevant to the title of the page, for example "Sparkplugs from Ford Motor Company" would be an appropriate title for Ford's page where they sell or explain something about the sparkplugs they use. "History of Automobiles from Ford Motor Company" would be deceptive and inaccurate if the page was about all automobiles, not merely those made by Ford. In this case the obtuse titling would drive people away from valid content.
Your page should titled to reveal its content. If the content is generic, then that is your problem. The solution is not to deceptively/inaccurately title the page!
The worst webmastering in the world are domains with the business title as the title of every page. Of course, people here aren't advocating that, but still, including reptitive and inappropriate use of a brand renders pages more anonymous, not less.
Titles, anchor text and h1 should be used as they were designed. Each will then accurately reveal to users the true content of a page. Sometimes domain name or company name will be appropriate, but sometimes it will just be tacked on. When you are tacking it on, you are using them inappropriately, and frankly I'd expect such stuffing to be as clearly defined as spam as doing the same thing with alt text is. Your company name does not belong in alt text... unless it truly does belong there.
Don't trash up your alt text with extra advertising text that doesn't belong there, and don't trash up your titles with it either. Make unique pages focused on something; give them unique, accurate and descriptive titles; link to them with approrpriate anchor text; use h1 and h2 to organize the page accurately; use accurate alt text on images; and stuff the extraneous stuffing in the trash where it belongs.
But just to repeat, sometimes the company name will be completely appropriate in page titles. However, if you ever feel like you are "adding" the company name, then it is inappropriate for a title and should not be used.
As several members now have said in different words titles should fit naturally into their contexts. Do not put keywords there just for the purpose of having keywords in your title. But neither should you remove keywords just for the fear of being regarded as a spammer. In some (rare) cases repetition of a keyword actually adds quality to a page.
"I posted that you should embrace the uniqueness of the content on your pages, not noise intended to advertise inappropriately. "
Branding is not inappropriate if it is helping the user. If I saw a title of a listing with your name on, I know it would be worth clicking and the type of content I would find. Your name/brand becomes associated with the keyword in peoples minds. Just like 'ebay' is too mobile phones - not clutter, but a means of economically highlighting that you are an auction site, rather than having to spell it out and lose keyword density. e.g. Mobile phones at Ebay. or 'tact and diplomacy from Steveb' ( I would know this would be a very short page :)
"Instead you are advocating to stuff widgets.com into the title. That is both inappropriate for a webpage title, aggressively anti-user, and a complete waste of electrons. "
A web page title is an advert. The first rule of advertising is to efficiently convey your product and make it stand out. Following your suggestion of keeping the title bland and factual reduces its effectiveness to 'the bleeding obvious'. The user knows the pages listed are about widgets, thats what they searched for!
"if your company detail or domain name is particularly relevant to the content of the page, then it is relevant to the title of the page, for example "Sparkplugs from Ford Motor Company" would be an appropriate title for Ford's page where they sell or explain something about the sparkplugs they use. "History of Automobiles from Ford Motor Company" would be deceptive and inaccurate if the page was about all automobiles, not merely those made by Ford. In this case the obtuse titling would drive people away from valid content."
If you search for 'Sparkplugs from Ford Motor company' then the 'History of Automobiles from Ford Motor Company' probably won't show high up. This is googles job, not yours to worry about. In this example, if everyone just used the same obvious title then a user would have to click every listing to find out who they are dealing with. But, if you added '... from JoeBlogs Ltd' and you remember them as being good... BINGO.
"Your page should titled to reveal its content. If the content is generic, then that is your problem. The solution is not to deceptively/inaccurately title the page! "
No one is suggesting that, and this would primarily be unhelpful to google thus giving you a poor ranking. If your title is generic, all the more reason to introduce uniqueness by establishing a brand.
"The worst webmastering in the world are domains with the business title as the title of every page. Of course, people here aren't advocating that, but still, including reptitive and inappropriate use of a brand renders pages more anonymous, not less. "
Nope, contradiction of terms, a brand cannot be anonymous, it is a definition of who they are.
"(brandname).....When you are tacking it on, you are using them inappropriately, and frankly I'd expect such stuffing to be as clearly defined as spam"
I think there is a lot of hypocrisy talked about spam. Serps = advertising. The best form of advertising is getting noticed in the serps, you don't achieve this by doing the same as everyone else. Tacking on a brandname is never spam, it is defining the style of your company/business (re ebay example)
" and stuff the extraneous stuffing in the trash where it belongs. "
I can think of many successful sites who have achieved stability of traffic by not being reliant on Google. They did this by promoting branding everywhere they could, and branding in the title I'm sure helped them.
"But just to repeat, sometimes the company name will be completely appropriate in page titles. However, if you ever feel like you are "adding" the company name, then it is inappropriate for a title and should not be used. "
Inapproriate? Never. No one wants to be reliant on google, branding will help achieve this. Branding helps identify you with qualities you want to promote about yourself, whatever the page is about. You may sell widgets but have a page about widget safety. Someone clicks that serp link because they know you sell a lot of widgets and probably know what you are talking about. You become in their mind a complete authority on widgets.
Now, back to why spider first, user second. If you put your brand name on every page you often will be linked to with the title of the page as the anchor text. Directories often do this. If you just have an exact keyword phrase, the anchor text link may become less effective. If you can force google (via anchor text links) to associate your brandname as a broad match word (car hire companies are a good example of this) you generate a unique advantage.
In my case, the site is a review site of items in a specific field. We have built quite a reputation with manufacturers as well as readers. A large percentage of people that would search on those items will also be familiar with my site an the sort of reviews that we do.
So, if they are searching on an item, and they see "mysite.com - itemname review" the branding does tell them something important. They will know the sort of review to expect when they click on that link.
Our reviews are long and in depth. Some people like them, and some people hate them. And some people want to avoid any reviews entirely and just get on with shopping. Branding helps them so this.
Recognizing who you are dealing with is almost always important, especially in the world of commerce. There are companies that I want to deal with, and those I want to avoid, and lots in between. Having branding in the title helps me make that choice.
If the title is supposed to be what the page is about, then who you are is part of what that page is about.
Let's look at a title for a book that I was looking for recently. This came up #1 in the SERPs: "Amazon.com: Books: Manifold Destiny : The One! The Only! Guide to Cooking on Your Car Engine"
Yup, that is the book I was looking for (but I ain't going to pay that price). But the "Amazon.com" part of that tells me something really important, that it is being sold by a company that I would rather not deal with if I can avoid it.
In fact, I wish all yahoo stores would put that in their titles so that I could avoid them too.
Form and Function of Blue Widgets and Black Widgets
My SERP placement for Black Widgets has dropped from #12 (out of 650,000 pages) to #200 or so since Florida. However Blue Widgets stays steady at #4 (out of 50,000 pages). My anchor text throughout the site is the same as the page title.
My page is #2 when a third keyword is added to the search, such as "function of black widgets" (30,000 pages). So it appears that whatever penalty applies on the competitive two word search is lifted for three words.
I don't know how many clicks I am missing because of my not branding.
Many of my page titles are not even proper sentences -- just things like:
Widget Love ¦ Marrying A Widget ¦ Can A Widget Relationship Last? ¦ The Clergy's Response
It seems to be good food for spiders. And on my doorway pages where I have an introduction to the topic (maybe with a few external links), I am pretty happy just posting a series of internal links (that use the titles of the pages they refer to) to pages of on-topic content. It may not look too poetic or professional, but the keywords that define the page in question, are the same keywords stuffed into the hyperlink on the doorway page. It's easy for people to scan for what they want.
So it appears that whatever penalty applies on the competitive two word search is lifted for three words
What penalty? There isn't even any suggestion of a filter, only an algo change.
Though it does sound like your site is the sort that google wants to see drop in the SERPs: "My page titles ARE my meta keywords", "My anchor text throughout the site is the same as the page title.", "any of my page titles are not even proper sentences", "the same keywords stuffed into the hyperlink on the doorway page".
Only if you think spam is sirlion. A page title is not an advert. An H1 tag is not an advert. Alt text is not an advert. They have specific, utilitarian functions. They exist to fulfill their functions, not to have inapproriate words stuffed into them. The title is for the title. That's it. It isn't called the "advert meta tag".
"Nope, contradiction of terms, a brand cannot be anonymous, it is a definition of who they are."
That's absurd if you actually look at webpages. There are millions of domains where all the pages are named the same, the company name. That makes the pages utterly, completely anonymous.
And that is the root of your problem here. We are talking about PAGES, and titles of PAGES. Pages should be unique, and titles should accurately reflect that uniqueness. If a bunch of pages on a domain continually have the same repetitive titling then you aren't understanding that search engines are page based.
Search engines rank pages that have page titles. They do not, and should not, rank businesses.
"No one wants to be reliant on google, branding will help achieve this"
We aren't talking about life in general. This is the Google forum and the topic title relates to Google. You are confusing the issue if you are speaking about other stuff... but still, the basic concept is the same. The title tag is for the title, like the alt tags are for alt text that describes an image. These are not for stuffing inappropriate advertising content.
It's both bad and inappropriate web design to stuff advertising text where it does not belong. Company names can fit naturally in titles, and if you want your company name there then just build your pages accordingly! That shouldn't be rocket science. A title of "Roger Ebert Reviews Gone with the Wind" is aperfectly fine title for Roger Ebert's website. Stuffing "Yahoo Geocities" into the title bar of all geocities pages would be extreme anti-user idiocy, even though it would obviously lead to a ton of branding. There are millions of pages on the Internet that should not be titled "Yahoo Geocities" because that is not what their page content is about.
This is not a small issue. Making webpages for users is making webpages for search engines. Making pages that use elements for purposes that they were not intended is bad for users and search engines can and should punish such behavior.
Brand your company by making contextual pages, not by tacking on the domain name where it doesn't belong.
I guess it isn't obvious, but the point is that you should use the title tag appropriately but you should seek to be smart enough to make that appropriate text happen to work out to be good advertising of the "person looking at this, clicking on this link is a good idea" type.
Be contextual, integrated, approrpriate and follow the rules... don't "tack on" or stuff words where they don't belong. Another way to say it would be: make your pages so that they can genuinely have the titles you want.
That's absurd if you actually look at webpages. There are millions of domains where all the pages are named the same, the company name. That makes the pages utterly, completely anonymous.
Nobody's suggesting that all of a site's pages should have the same title.
And that is the root of your problem here. We are talking about PAGES, and titles of PAGES. Pages should be unique, and titles should accurately reflect that uniqueness. If a bunch of pages on a domain continually have the same repetitive titling then you aren't understanding that search engines are page based.
Titles don't exist only for search engines. They also exist for readers. The difference between "Glazed Donuts" and "Glazed Donuts - Krispy Kreme" may not be important to Google when it's processing a request for information on "glazed donuts," but it may very well be important to the person who's conducting the search.
Search engines rank pages that have page titles. They do not, and should not, rank businesses.
That's another "straw man" argument. Nobody's suggesting that Google should rank businesses. Some of us are suggesting that titles be used in the way were intended to be used long before Google came along: namely, to provide information for the reader. The fact that such titles help to establish name recognition for a Web site (or for a business) is just a bonus. :-)
I on the other hand have very intelligent, and yes, I would even go so far as to call them literate, users.
ROFLMAO! You control who visits your sites? Do you give them an IQ test also to prove their intelligence?
My users are not only intelligent but highly attractive as well as philanthropic :)
[edited by: mfishy at 11:19 pm (utc) on April 28, 2004]
My site's just a large blog-like thing. I do well enough for me for a whole lot of obscure non-commercial areas.
A series of keywords for a title is good enough for me -- it's both descriptive and concise. Whether it supports click through, I have no idea.
As far as that downgrade in SERP placement for the two keyword search I mentioned, I really haven't figured on what the algo is doing, as the page is very relevant. It's got to be about repeated words, or repeated words in certain contexts.
I still think that titles make excellent hyperlinks.
Peace
Google states "Make sure that your TITLE and ALT tags are descriptive and accurate"
SEO is all about maximising your sites search engine potential within the stated rules, branding within the title is always within those rules.
As soon as anybody puts up a web page they are marketing and advertising. They are doing it via the title, H1, alt, body text and every bit of code they write. They are marketing and advertising their products, ideas, information etc. for others to see. Google is advertising other peoples sites with an agenda of their own. The whole of the web is 'advertising', from the sad pervert who wants attention to the multi national company who sells products.
"Search engines rank pages that have page titles. They do not, and should not, rank businesses."
...and that is where you are so wrong. Whether you are writing about your grannies recipe for 'sirlion spam' or selling rocket parts, you are in the business of advertising information. Branding is an integral part of advertising and the title of a web page is a legitimate target on every occasion.... even Google does it.
Sites that have poor titles will probably either rank badly or not get clicked. They are irrelevant to our discussion.
Sites that have clever targeted keyword titles may get clicked, but often get lost amongst the hundreds of other similar 'clever targeted keyword titles'.
Sites that have clever targeted keyword titles and branding will always have the edge. They are maximising their advertising/marketing potential.
To suggest that serps are not about advertising is like arguing the world is flat.
I still think that titles make excellent hyperlinks.
A lot of other people thought that before Florida hit.
Jobs in London - Employment agency
I like that even though I'd be tempted to go for Jobs in London - London Employment agency as proposed by troels nybo nielsen
I have a website:
"Keyword1 word keyword2, keyword2 word keyword1"Works fine. Always did.
Its not a case of title spamming but merely a way of describing the page in two ways using different terms, blue widgets could have loads of sites with blue widget pages on the net, better to classify your blue widgets IMHO.
added: ok its not quite as troels nybo nielsen example but I think it works better.
Then you should be agreeing with me.
Instead you are suggesting Yahoo Geocities should be included in the title for all those pages, which is ridiculous.
Krispy Kreme doughnuts is exactly what I have been saying. But the Krispy Kreme part should be there for *users*, not to advertise your website.
Titles are for users, not webmasters. If webmasters are too dumb to create pages for the titles they want to use, that is the problem.
Adding extraneous information to your title is as anti-user as possible. When something brandable is relevant to the page content, then include it if you want. When it isn't, then don't. Any branding considerations should be secondary and totally dependent on the relevance of the page content.
===
"Nobody's suggesting that Google should rank businesses."
LOL. I guess you haven't been reading MHes' posts.
Instead you are suggesting Yahoo Geocities should be included in the title for all those pages, which is ridiculous.
Why do you make this stuff up? Nobody is suggesting anything of the kind.
I don't think you are understanding what you are saying, or what you are disagreeing with.
Include only relevant, accurate wording in the Title tag. Oftentimes that will mean being able to sensibly include your domain or company name. Do not include the domain or company name if it is not relevant to the page. For example, Brett could add a directory or subdomain to this site about his trip to Mount Everest. Including "webmaster world" in the title tag for every one of those pages (say 100 photo pages) would not be useful or relevant to the content on those pages, just like "Yahoo" being appended to all geocities pages would not be useful to users, even if it would offer branding to Yahoo.
If it naturally fits, go ahead and use it. If you have to "add" it, don't.
How about including relevant accurate wording in your posts?
You are being very inconsistent in your thoughts and appear to be very confused about what serps are. Serps are an advertising medium for web pages. Titles appear on serps and thus are advertising copy. You can write a bad title, or a good title. Just because people do branding badly, doesn't mean it need be inappropriate, it just means they do not know how to do it well. Branding can always be applied in a clever and effective way. A good title will maximise your advertising potential in many ways, with branding and keyword content. Its no good trying to argue that just because people get it wrong that therefore branding is in some situations inappropriate. If it is done well, it is always appropriate, because it is a recognised advertising tool that makes your listing potentially stand out from the rest. It defines your style and content and who you are. If a user recognises the brand, it becomes a signal to the user as to what they can expect on the page. Having both a page defining title and branding is better than having just the defining title. It is making more use of the real estate google is providing and if done well, provides the user with more information about the type of site they will visit, in a very economic way. The trick is to get it recognised, and that is what marketing is all about. A good title will define the page content and establish a brand in the users mind. When it works, it is useful for the user, if it doesn't work, it may do in the future.... that's called establishing the brand.
Branding not only works on a purely user level, it can be an effective seo tool. Making a brandname a broad match word is a killer tactic. Using a brand name to dilute an exact keyword match is also useful.
"A page title is not an advert."
Wrong - Serps = advertising space. Title = advertising copy.
"...the point is that you should use the title tag appropriately but you should seek to be smart enough to make that appropriate text happen to work out to be good advertising..."
EXACTLY, and good advertising includes branding.
"Titles are for users, not webmasters."
Wrong - Titles are for webmasters to attract users.
You are a ledgend. And I believe you have done very well from advertising in titles. Well done you matey.
You are being ridiculous now so no point in going on. Inventing your own meaning for words may be fun in lala land, but it just wastes time.
If a user recognises the brand, it becomes a signal to the user as to what they can expect on the page.
exactly.
if a brand is well developed the surfer will click on your result first (even if is it ranked 6 on the page) simply because they associate your brand with quality. That is where i want my sites to be positioned.
Steveb's thrown his hand in. :)
Wrong - Titles are for webmasters to attract users.
Shouldn't that be:
Titles are for webmasters to attract users - Webmasters use titles and users will be attracted.
lala land
I think many come here to find out how to make sites do better, unfortunately in many threads there's a lot of disinformation or sementics (note the spelling), maybe its deliberate.
I think reading the whole thread we would agree that direct repetition is bad but a play on phrases is a good thing that will work well for your site if done well.
As is following guidelines. Obviously some people care not about them, and any type of behavior is fine with them. Those folks have different priorities than those of us who follow guidelines. To that end, a good way to be "found and be seen" is not break the rules and use all html elements as they were designed. If following guidelines is your way to do things, then use your page titles for pages titles, not to stuff a bunch of crap as part of a scheme to do something other than sensibly reveal the content of the page.
So this is a new observation about titles in google:
Plurals are not considered when user search for the singular key.
If someone search: widgets
blue widget will be ignored
and blue widgets considered
In the past I belived that using plurals helped because you would be found either someone searches for widget or widgets...
Is that a recent change or I was wrong?
