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DMOZ and Google

Some basic questions

     

JeanL

9:48 am on Jan 9, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hi How necessary is it to be in a DMOZ category in order to be in a Google category.
Are all DMOZ listings eventually to be found in Google?
Does being in a Google category help your rankings on Google?
I understand that DMOZ is a human-led system. Is indexing or ranking or category placement in any way human-led on Google.

jtbell

6:03 pm on Jan 9, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



How necessary is it to be in a DMOZ category in order to be in a Google category.

If you mean a category in the Google Directory (not simply in the search results), it's essential to be in DMOZ. Google gets their directory data from DMOZ and simply sorts each page in PageRank order. They don't add any entries themselves, as far as I know.

Are all DMOZ listings eventually to be found in Google?

As far as I know, yes.

Does being in a Google category help your rankings on Google?

In general, links from DMOZ and other sites that use DMOZ data count towards your PageRank the same as other links. That is, it depends on the PageRank of whatever directory page you're listed on. I don't know about links from the Google Directory specifically, i.e. whether Google makes an exception and counts those links differently.

Is indexing or ranking or category placement in any way human-led on Google.

Indexing and ranking in Google's search results is not human-led as far as I know, except that sometimes Google does remove sites by hand for especially bad cases of spamming. Category placement in the directory is of course completely human-led, via the DMOZ editors; but Google doesn't have anything to do with that.

George

6:48 pm on Jan 9, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



>>>>except that sometimes Google does remove sites by hand for especially bad cases of spamming

I might add this is very rare, much less than they used to 3 years ago.

Powdork

3:16 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



You can find some info here [deemozwatch.org]

nakulgoyal

3:31 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Wow....so this is interesting to know! And yes, once you are in DMOZ, you get everywhere. Lot of websites and portal use the dmoz content and they all become back links to you. drive traffic to you and everything works.

But dont spam dmoz with your submissions. First find the best SUITED category and submit!

Stefan

3:46 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



But dont spam dmoz with your submissions. First find the best SUITED category and submit!

Yep. Take some time before you submit, looking for the best category, and only submit to that one. Look for a very pertinent category that has fewer entries, rather than many, if possible. Also have a look at the PR of the cat.

Remember that there are real humans deciding on what gets entered... you want your site to stand up to an inspection for relevance and content.

Definitely submit to dmoz, though... it's the heart of most SE's, including Google.

div01

5:17 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



And yes, once you are in DMOZ, you get everywhere. Lot of websites and portal use the dmoz content and they all become back links to you. drive traffic to you and everything works.

But 99.9% of these "DMOZ duplicates" have no PR and have never gotten me much traffic.

Powdork

5:32 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Definitely submit to dmoz, though... it's the heart of most SE's, including Google.
Then Google needs to get in line for a transplant.

Stefan

6:18 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Powdork, imho people get too zoned on Google serps. It's totally understandable, because they supply about 70-80% of the SE referrals, but there are a lot of other things crawling through the net and some of them might eventually have their day in the sun.

The ODP is the greatest factor in ensuring that all of the bots, for all of the would-be next Googles, will know that your site exists. If you have decent ODP listings, they'll all find you eventually... PFI, GRUB, The-Neighbour's-Cat's SE, the whole kit and kaboodle. A dmoz listing is invaluable.

Your exasperated tone suggests that you have a dmoz listing, but see no benefit post-florida... Some categories are regarded by Google with more authority than others, perhaps. I can believe that travel, on-line pharmacy, etc, categories have been hammered. If there is a commercial filter in place, then sites that are affected won't be helped by an ODP listing. If you have a site not affected that way, then the listing continues to be incredibly valuable.

Powdork

6:39 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Actually my site was removed from DMOZ [deemozwatch.org]. And as far as Florida goes, I have recovered quite nicely thank you. The Google traffic is still down slightly, but Yahoo's switch to inktomi is bringing me more than enough to replace it. But yes, I do get exasperated whenever anyone mentions dmoz.

stever

7:09 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Powdork, you've been here more than long enough to know about linking to sites that you have a personal interest in...

Powdork

7:31 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



fair enough.
One question completely OT, and please don't take offense. Why do steves feel compelled to use steve* as their nic? Is there a steve forum that explains all this?;)

stever

7:45 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Because we can't all be dorks? ;)

Powdork

7:48 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



stevedork-One who is employed in the loading or unloading of ships in a dorkish manor.;)

stever

7:59 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



To return to the point of the thread...

Does being in a Google category help your rankings on Google?

In the past, people have tended to make efforts to gain placement in a category as high as possible. In view of recent and possible future algo changes, is the PR gained by a listing in a general business or regional category going to be outweighed by the "topic" advantage of a listing in the more specific Business/Widget category?

antrat

9:10 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)



And as far as Florida goes, I have recovered quite nicely thank you. The Google traffic is still down slightly, but Yahoo's switch to inktomi is bringing me more than enough to replace it

That hasn't happened yet has it?

DMOZ is only worth submitting to to gain some PR. Having said this though, the PR gained is not any better than any other page with equal PR and links.

Powdork

10:17 am on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



That hasn't happened yet has it?
It has at my house, but not at my work. There are numerous reports of this in th Y! forum. Its been happening slowly but I noticed alot because I just paid for the ink listing.

ronin

6:34 pm on Jan 10, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



DMOZ is only worth submitting to to gain some PR.

Oh please. It's practically the backbone of the internet... I get the impression though, that the editors prefer to populate their categories with sites they find on their own - not sites that get submitted to them.

antrat

2:08 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)



Oh please. It's practically the backbone of the internet

LOL! I doubt that, although DMOZ editors would have us believe otherwise. Google could be called that (at a stretch), but certainly not DMOZ. Google has/does find sites without the aid of DMOZ, if DMOZ died tomorrow the interent would still be the same. Hardly a backbone! The traffic from DMOZ, and all directories that pull from it, account for less than 0.5% of my traffic and I suspect it's the same for most.

Stefan

2:36 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



if DMOZ died tomorrow the interent would still be the same

No it wouldn't. It would be left in the hands of machines. The ODP, along with the Yahoo Directory, is the human heart and soul of the internet.

We don't get a lot of traffic from our listings either, maybe 2-3%, but the ODP is worth much more to your site than the referrals. It is truly the backbone of the internet. It is where all the SE's start from, including Google. It is where all the new ones will continue to start. It's the hub.

antrat

3:30 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)



Do you really believe that the internet would no longer be if DMOZ died? I guess you must if you think it's the heart, sole and backbone.

The internet was around long before DOMZ and the internet will still be around long after DMOZ. It's only one site for goodness sakes and can be replaced in a minute.

Just because Google uses it now, does not mean they need it tommorow.

I'm sorry, but anyone that thinks DMOZ is vital for the survival of the internet (heart,sole and backbone)is very ill informed and naive.

Stefan

3:51 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Antrat, I don't believe for a minute that dmoz is essential for the survival of the internet, whatever that means, (I don't expect the net to suddenly go t*ts-up any time soon). I do believe that the ODP will continue to be the most important root source for every Search Engine for the foreseeable future. Encouraging new webmasters to disregard the importance of a dmoz listing is not doing anyone any favours.

antrat

4:31 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)



I didn't discourage anyone from submitting to DMOZ.

While SE (Google) use DMOZ today that certainly do not mean they need it. Google will pick up your site from a link on any spidered page.

As DMOZ is not needed it is not correct to refer to it as a "heart", "sole" or "backbone". That is feeding baloney to new Webmasters.

Stefan

4:51 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Ok, antrat, one more stab at it.

It's not all about Google. The ODP is the most important source for SE's generally. Having an ODP listing gets you found by everyone. You don't need to pay for PFI SE's if you are in dmoz. You don't need to submit to Gigablast or any of the newer SE's. Every single new SE starts with a dmoz RDF dump as their core database.

I think you might be misinterpreting my use of the words, "heart" and "soul". I use those words because dmoz is human edited, not a mindless machine algo. As for "backbone", if every SE uses dmoz as their root source, (it's no coincidence that the Google Directory is dmoz), then that seems like a backbone to me.

antrat

5:24 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)



I think you might be missing my point. Most web pages are written and uploaded by humans. All you need is one link on one of these pages and Google will find you. You do not need a link in DMOZ to get picked up by Google and the page that has your link does not need to be in DMOZ.

5 years ago I would have agreed with you (to a point) but DMOZ is no longer *needed* by SE.

To say something is a "backbone" implies that it is vital. DMOZ in not vital.

Powdork

6:09 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Every single new SE starts with a dmoz RDF dump as their core database.
I'm betting Microsoft won't. I don't think inktomi does. Nor does AV, Fast/AlltheWeb, or AskJeeves. So what are you talking about.
The sites that do use odp data can be found here [dmoz.org]

hutcheson

6:43 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



>is the PR gained by a listing in a general business or regional category going to be outweighed by the "topic" advantage of a listing in the more specific Business/Widget category?

Wrong question. First of all, if both a Regional listing and a Business listing are possible, they aren't mutually exclusive. You can suggest the site to both places. So the question is like saying, "is the advantage of peanut butter outweighed by the absense of jelly in a sandwich?" The real questions are: (1) Do you have peanut butter to put on your sandwich, and (2) Do you have jelly?

Second, the choice is not between general business or more specific business category. Every site should be listed in the most specific category that it "predominately fits". Submitting to Business/Industries when your site is really about a Handcrafted Chiral Widget manufacturer in the opto-electronics industry, is just a stupid way of wasting months waiting for an editor to move the site down to the more specific category where it can START to wait for an actual review. So the REAL question is "do I want to save five minutes of submittal time in order to add months or years to the tims spent waiting for a site review?"

Powdork

7:10 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



Hutcheson,
You are always the voice of reason on the side of the ODP even in the face of great criticism or outrageous remarks (from either side). I would like to nominate you in the roll of DmozDude (or DeeMozDude if you're ever on my site). Regardless of our disagreements, its always fun sometimes.

stever

8:53 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



hutcheson, I am not talking about mis-submitting a site. One tactic that webmasters use(d) with the ODP/Google is designing a site so that it fits a higher listing, which would normally be a higher PR level - thus including widgets, wodgets and wudgets so that it would potentially fit a "w" goods category. (Note the numbers of "worldwide" or "industry"-wide directories which are insufficiently filled and are often complained about.)

What I was querying was whether the latest changes had made it more advantageous (and possibly advantageous enough to outweigh any PR gain) to be listed in the more specific category rather than the more general one.

Thus the focus might well change to producing fake micro-sites rather than fake macro-sites...

Powdork

9:30 am on Jan 11, 2004 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member powdork is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



I know you asked Hutcheson, but I would argue that the opposite is true. It is the mega directories that are getting rich at the expense of the niche sites in the case of Florida.
about.com
worldweb.com
choice1.com
realtor.com
amazon.com
wunderground.com
The first two get more than 2 listings per page due to G's current inability to tell location.about.com and areaincludinglocation.about.com are the same domain.

My new mega site 'about-world.weddings.edu' should do quite well. Now what cat should I submit that to...;)

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