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A good, and very high ranking example I found only contained these Buy terms in an image file. There is a single link further into the site, but no text to suggest to a robot that it is a storefront.
Content is *still* king.
Answer:
A page on an e-commerce bureau site, that simply *describes* my site, now ranks No 7 in the World for my main search terms. (Goes without saying that my site itself is nowhere to be seen - but luckily there's a huge button on the page to direct you to the site proper :) )
I hope Google doesn't mistake this for a doorway page :(
I guess it is a doorway page, and a very successful one at that - but I didn't write it!
Which brings us around nicely to the original topic of the thread - the new algo seems to actually *favour* these irrelevant pages in many cases!
now on the other hand if the pages in question are content rich, and wanted people to click on some link (classic example is porn thumbnail gallery posts a.k.a. TGP) then it is not a "bad" or "evil" doorway page
No, they are then called content pages and not "doorway" pages.
doorway pages take on a new and totally usefull meaning
No, then they are no longer doorway pages.
There seems to be a lot confusion on just what a doorway page is! Here is the Google definition, which is more important than anyone elses.
Doorway Page: A page which has been specially created in order to get a high ranking in the search engines. Also called gateway page, bridge page, entry page etc
specially was bolded by me.
A page which has been specially created in order to get a high ranking in the search engines
But the observation is that many of these pages are doing disproportionately well post-Florida, because they appear to mask the commercial content of the site they lead to.
It is very difficult for an automated system to determine the intent behind a doorway page - i.e. whether it has been 'specially created' with SEO in mind.
The guy at the top of my SERPs has't budged through Florida - because he has a very effective doorway - as for his intent - very hard to say. Certainly works!
[edited by: superscript at 9:45 am (utc) on Dec. 11, 2003]
Here is the Google definition, which is more important than anyone elses
I beg to differ. Google's definition has nothing to do with anything. If people enter my site on a content rich page then for all practical purposes it is a doorway into my site. Nobody can dictate I call it by any other name. I will continue to call it a doorway page.
specially created to get high rankings in search enginesis a bunkum, amateur description, even if it comes from Google. Maybe they meant "specially created to SPAM search engines" which is a different thing altogether. All my content pages were written for the user. But I did add meta tags, I did add alt tags, I did word the Title and Description carefully in the hope that they would rank highly in SEs. I may have even run a KWD to make sure the text flowed smoothly without too many repetitions of the same word. By the above definition these pages must be banned. But they do very well and they present no grounds for a spam report to Google.
But the observation is that many of these pages are doing disproportionately well post-Florida, because they appear to mask the commercial content of the site they lead to.
That may well be true! However, Google has never finished mixing and matching and some will get caught while others get away with it. Regardless of this I would never condone anything that *may* get you in Googles black book!
Some crooks get caught, while others live their lives in luxury. But this doesn't distort right from wrong.
When it's all said and done, adding good qualtity content pages takes no more time that creating doorway pages and will get you lots more traffic in the long run.
verbally naming a page a Doorway does not make it one
Excellent point. And calling a doorway page by any other name does not make it any less a doorway into my site :-)
So if someone allows deep linking, allows people to enter on pages other than the home page, then all the pages so accessible are doorways.
To bring the thread back on course perhaps it's an issue of whether the SPAMMY doorway pages, created with bad intent, have somehow derived an advantage post-Florida. And, if they have perhaps it's because an automated system is unable to determine intent, as Superscript has pointed out. Intent is very clear in some cases and very blurred in others. It seems that when Google's automated system sees a "blur" it gives the webmaster the benefit of the doubt.
<edit: Typo>
[edited by: Macro at 1:17 pm (utc) on Dec. 11, 2003]
Question for those who see this as acceptable practice: It's my perception that in most if not all cases, when index pages no longer appear for important keyword pairs, *no* page in that site shows for that kw pair.
If so, isn't it likely that creating doorway pages for those important phrases will do little or no good? At least wrt Google?
* this is not to say that the sub-pages of the sites necessarily lack content - far from it. I think they're just making use of inbound anchor text for their positioning, and little else - the Google Bombing effect. If it's accidental - they've been very lucky. If it is deliberate - it shows remarkable foresight.
when index pages no longer appear for important keyword pairs, *no* page in that site shows for that kw pair
Exactly! Therefore "doorway" pages would have to be from another domain and probably from another I.P.
My question is: When kw pairs (or 3 kw groups) are banned from SERPs is it because of OOP on the index page or OOP from the entire site?
I'd like to know if someone has made changes only to their index page and seen noticeable results.
My question is: When kw pairs (or 3 kw groups) are banned from SERPs is it because of OOP on the index page or OOP from the entire site?
There's no reason why it couldn't be a combination of both. i.e. OOP on a page by page basis, plus a site-wide OOP based on the 'misbehaviour' of the index page.
Example: let say my kw phrase is "big blue widgets" which is not only on the index page but every other page as well. If it reaches some percentage of density then Google lifts its antenna and matches that phrase to the index page, perhaps checking to see if it is in the title tag or if the index density for that phrase is high. If so, BINGO!
What about this page then? Well, its a subdomain index page, it is linked to from all my main site pages as part of my site navigation. It links to my main site pages because it basically has the same site navigation bars as my main site. It has content, but only indirectly related (broadly relevant?) to the keyphrases it shows for.
To all intents and purposes it looks like a doorway page - although that isn't the intent. It is a subdomain as a consequence of a commercial venture undertaken well before Florida and has nothing to do with SEO.
What do we know (anecdotally) about Florida:
Subdomains seem to do well.
Outbound links seem to score well.
Broadly relevent sites seem to do well.
Directores seem to do well.
Guess what, my subdomain page appears to have all those attribute and it is doing well.
Guess what sort of page I am currently working on....
BTW,
I was asked a question today - I didn't know the answer but I knew someone who did. The questioner was pleased with my reply.
* It would be wrong to post this here - but if you're not aware of the recent widely reported case search the BBC or sticky me.
Added:
(Have we found the whole or just a hole?)
Might work in the short term, but ultimately it doesn't wash. The problem is with the algo, not the sites. There's far too little emphasis on on-page factors.
And let's not forget that if Google does go down the pan, deliberately de-optimising could jeopardise your position in other, up and coming, search engines.
And besides - wouldn't deoptimising be yet another form of SEO by us cunning webmasters. We could be hit by an UOOP (under-optimisation-optimisation-penalty) ;)
So I'm still resisting the urge to tweak :)
[edited by: superscript at 3:14 pm (utc) on Dec. 11, 2003]
I'm not going down the "de-optimize route". I don't buy into that at all. I'm certainly not re-engineering my site to be about something other than what is about.
I am talking about adding more (useful) content, not less. Be seen to be relevant for more things. That remains my strategy.
I was thinking hypothetically - not suggesting it was something either you, or I, might consider.
On -in right now I'm seeing a beautifully crafted set of doorway pages (and I would imagine well used cloaking) that has risen to the top of a competitive heap that we belong to - further research and they dominate! Wow!.
This and another group that implements a similar but not-so-sophisticated (actually quite ugly) method are still in, and doing fine.
Whoever is in charge of that first example, hats off and a handshake to them!
<edit: see below>
[edited by: mipapage at 3:37 pm (utc) on Dec. 11, 2003]
What attributes do these doorway pages you see posess, particularly in relation to the keyphrases they show?
What attributes do these doorway pages you see posess?
Tough call merlin30, weird thing is I would say 'none'. They're all 301'd, so no content, and redirect to a main page that google doesn't have spidered. No caching either.
this is live stuff, not just on -in
These are my own thoughts - not those of WebmasterWorld:
1) 'Doorway-type' pages to commercial sites that probably look un-commercial to a robot, appear to have ridden Florida's storms.
2) The best examples have almost zero content, but lie highly in the SERPs, and have a simple link into a high content site. Most are index pages. Keywords are thin.
3) This suggests an OOP (over optimisation penalty) which can be avoided if the index page looks non-commercial)
4) Sub-pages appear unaffected by any OOP - suggesting that an OOP is calculated on a page by page basis.
5) The solution would appear to be a deliberate de-optimisation of index pages
6) But this makes no logical sense - because the deliberate act of de-optimisation implies a deliberate act of optimisation!
7) The appearance of pages high in the SERPs because they are only partially relevant, infers a corruption in the algo.
8) If this is the case, it can easily be circumscribed.
9) The simplest conclusion is that Google is experiencing difficulties.
The only major keywords my site shows for seems to be that on pages which have a link to my site
I've posted this before - but my site appears to be at No 7 in the world, due to the No 7 position of a site that simply *describes* my site.
This is not a relevant result - it simply can't be. It should be buried in the X -thousandth SERP.#
If my site is so relevant that even a site describing it comes in at No 7 - then where is the actual site?
It's my perception that in most if not all cases, when index pages no longer appear for important keyword pairs, *no* page in that site shows for that kw pair.
Maybe in most cases, but certainly not in all cases. One of my index pages has disappeared for its most important keyphrase(where it previously ranked #1), but another page from the same site continues to be on the first page of Google's search results for that keyphrase.(
(Neither page is a doorway page, by the way.)
Index pages are just pages like any other as far as SERP rankings go.
In theory, that should be true. In practice, many index page disappeared from Google in the Florida update (at least for their relevant keyphrases) while interior pages remained.
