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I'm the webmaster of a website with a big pagerank. I'm often asked by other websites that want to have a link on my pages. Sometimes, those websites do not have the same language...
Before, links were made for the users and now they are here for google.
I think that this situation is due to the view of the pagerank in the google toolbar. With this tool, webmasters are only focused on their pagerank (even if the view is not precise).
I propose (do not shoot me) the end of the pagerank in the googlebar to reduce the crazy interest for this.
I would like your opinion about that. What is the interest of viewing the pagerank in the googlebar unless destroying google's algo.
who is lecturing Google to do anything? We are simply discussing what many people believe to become the shortcomings of displaying PR. And it is the opinion of many that displaying PR encourages webmasters to engage in all sorts of crazy linking schemes, buying of links, etc. - do you actually doubt this to be true?
hat displaying PR encourages webmasters to engage in all sorts of crazy linking schemes, buying of links, etc. - do you actually doubt this to be true?
Hmmm why would you call it crazy? ... If my source of income was my website and I needed to drive up traffic and ultimately sales, I would not consider them to be crazy schemes. I also think that buying of links is just another way of marketing and not the capital crime that some people make it out to be. Does it throw a wrench in Google's algo? Probably since it would be hard to decide, which link represents true praise rather than an exchange of cash, but Cest la vie.
Alas, in the end PR is nothing but a souped up version of link popularity, it's predecessor.
Linkage has never been an objective voting process, and it has never represented peoples honest opinions.
Links have been traded in one way or another long before Google was even an idea in some student's minds.
In other words: the ideal world which Google's PR theory assumes has never existed.
If a site uses spammy techniques to get a high PR, reporting that to a user isnt doing him any favors.
Perhaps replace with a 'penalized' flag which is either shown or not; but discard the sliding scale.
However, the toolbar is a very powerful tool and it is speeding up the rate at which links no longer provide a meaningful representation of importance on the web.
At this point, I don't think Google could do anything to stop the decline of links as an accurate indication of a site's value. However, by removing the toolbar, I think they could slow this decline considerably.
The toolbar is a great tool and pagerank is one element of that. Users are able to see sites that for one reason or another are well regarded by other well-regarded sites. It ain't perfect, but it is very user friendly, and very anti-garbage.
From a webmaster perspective it is invaluable. If you don't like it, turn it off... but ignorance is not bliss. Pagerank isn't going away, and it shouldn't. Pagerank is the bedrock of what makes Google head and shoulders above other search engines, much to the chagrin of garbage content sites.
The toolbar doesn't stop anyone from linking to any site they want, and it doesn't prevent cookie-cutter crap sites from actually making good content.
That was the consumer side of me speaking. Now, as a developer and marketing guru I too would sincerely miss this little green bar. I understand the initial post, however this will happen still when someone checks your backlinks seeing your well ranking site... :)
I used to kind of "keep it in mind" when looking at facts and figures. If some page with a fact is on a cheesy PR 2 - I am less likely to believe it than if it is on three different PR 5s.
It is kind of individual to each person how they use it. I used to feel almost uncomfortable without it and every computer I used over friend's I made them install it :)
When they see a site that is 5 they assume it is mediocre. This might be true if an equal number of sites rated 5 as rated 10. But the way the system is niche interest areas like mine have no PR8 and up, practically no PR7 so it's about impossible to get above a 6 and literally impossible to get above a 7. There is no way I can get related links from high PR sites because there are none in my topic.
I think the PR on the tool bar gives the wrong impression to the public.
I have the same situation with a niche interest area.
But my sites in that area (all having PR 5) list #1 or at least #2 related to the important keywords / -phrases.
This is enough for most users to visit my sites, and they do. There might be a small partition of users checking PR of sites in SERPs. They will find there's only a hand full of PR 7 and even PR 6 sites. These sites cover a broader interest area and consequently get more visitors / more inbound links than mine. - My sites on the other hand are very specific about the niche interests. That's what those users looking at PR can / will understand.
So I guess it won't harm to have 'only' PR 5 in a very specific area.
I think it has to be said that a site could end up with a PR0 simply by following the web fundimentals. Joe blogg builds a personal site about his hobby. He doesnt know anything about seo he builds a link page to sites that are also related to his hobby without knowing it he links to a load of penalised sites. He now has a penalty and doesnt even know it. Ther fundimental point of the entire web was to create a web of links. Why should a search engine determine the ruit of the web when the roll of a search engine is to return results from what it finds, not what it makes.
Let us all start protecting our links pages and outbound links from being indexed.
After a certain time Google's links policy will be history.
I already dropped all outbound links from all of my web sites.
One penalized site is enough for me.
The traffic to that site has decreased with 90% since and my financial loss even so.
If people want to leave my site for visiting another I will not encourage them anymore with putting a bunch of links on my site.
Jeffry
In any event, I think filtering SHOULD be stronger - but this would be so complex to do, and I am sure they are working on it. Meaning, these sites that sell XYZ have a link directory for everything possible. I do NOT exchange links with these sites with any of our Clients. Once they get things in place, things will be cleaner - and the page rank (which aint goin' no-where) will be more fair/accurate..
[edited by: jady at 11:46 am (utc) on April 27, 2003]
No I did not. And I don't care if they drop links to my web site.
Most of the time those links are from low PR sites and they are doing no good to your site either.
I prefer to optimize my sites for being found via keyword search, this way you don't need inbound links.
Most of the time those links are from low PR sites and they are doing no good to your site either.
Just to clarify that, they won't do you harm, just won't do you all that much good if they're low PR.
I agree with you though, to a point. Optimising for keywords is a critical thing to do, but if your competitors do the same (maybe even copy your weighting etc from your pages when they see you do well, and they will) then the PR becomes important.
TJ
I'm not that sure they don't harm. What about PRO sites linking to your site? I don't take the risk anymore.
I prefer to be found, not to risk to be banned. If that happens you can throw your site into the trash bin.
And TJ, you really think PR becomes important in a competitors point of view?
He can see your inbound links if he wants and beat you that way too. Certainly if he has more money.
So, don't pay to much attention on PR.
Sounds like my high-school level understanding of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle. You can't accurately find the position of a thing without changing its momentum. Measuring anything will change it. The instrument of measurement (Google) is having an affect on the subject of measurement (the web). I think I'm good at my job, but I'll have to bump my hourly rate for subverting basic of laws of physics.
Darryl
Furthermore, I agree with some who mentioned that Google is shaping the net, rather then reporting it. To some extent they should, just like CNN and modern NEWS reporting could be held responsible for 11/9 or the war on IRAQ. If knowwbosdy would know/care, than it wouldn't be worth it to commit atrocities as publicity stunts. But on the other hand they have to be VERY AWARE of their own limitations. Unless they have an algorithm that ranks highly pages that are SUPER, GREAT and near perfect, they have to be very vary about their own imperfections.
Currently there is every indication that they are, ther mere fact taht GoogleGuy is here supports this.
Let's just hope they will always remain aware of their own responsibility.
Also, a good point, that niche topics are automatically "penalised" by pagerank. But htat is entirely natural, sicne its niche, fewer people are interested, ergo lower pagerank, that's jsut how it works (and it still does work!). and since teh SERPS will be more narrow, a lower PR site will still rank highly. This simply tells us that the real measure are the SERPS adn NOT PR.
Perhaps the toolbar shouldn't show PR which is a narrow measure (linking) which is misleading since most surfers don'T understand hte technicallities of it. Perhaps the toolbar should show the SERP ranking for what it percieves to be the main keywords (theme) for the page? would be more relevant, but obviously again harder to do (just what IS the main keyword of a page?).
Perhaps all this simply illustrates the shortcomings of keyword based searching. But Google already knows this and is workign hard to move to the next better thing, aren't you?
ehrm.. excuse the long rant...
SN
In which way are they useful to visitors?
An outbound link is only useful if pointing to another site of yours.
You cannot control who links to you. It will therefore never factor into the equation.
Otherwise, I may as well set up a duff site, spam google, get banned and then link from that site to all my competitors! That would be a little too easy...
The ability to "buy" incoming PR is reducing - google are doing things to try and prevent it. I do not believe that can continue forever, and will go at some point.
Good inbound PR comes to you because you have a better site than your competitors. That's what gets you the good links. Sure, at the moment if you have the cash you can buy them, but that will not last.
PR *is* the factor that matters, all else (keyword density, title and anchor text etc) being equal. That's unfortunate maybe, but very much a fact.
I agree that PR is the last thing to look at on your site wish list though. Anchor text, page titles and keywords carry more importance. Page Rank matters when you hit a glass ceiling on those factors.
TJ
I had a link from my banned site to one of my other sites a PR7 site, wich is dropped to PR4 now. All in the same periode. I found this at least strange.
So, I think the very moment a site is penalized it will affect the outbound links on it at that time.
>>>Otherwise, I may as well set up a duff site, spam google, get banned and then link from that site to all my competitors! That would be a little too easy...
A banned site will not be crawled anymore isn't it?
It becomes useless for bad purposes.
