Forum Moderators: buckworks
December I take an order which is later refunded.
A few days later I receive an email complaint via my CC processor. The customer wants a full explanation as to why the order was cancelled.
Before I can reply, she emails the CC people again demanding an answer stating she wont go away (no kidding).
I give her a full explanation - even sending her a free gift.
some days later receive an email stating the reason I gave was not good enough and she wants her order - problem is the item is not made any more. Replied giving her the same answer as before.
Receive further emails - all of which I ignore.
Last night receive two angry emails balling me out in MY personal email. One of which shows my home address from the whois file.
Ignore both.
9.30 telephone call from said lady - goes to ansa phone - 'I know your there picking up your phone' something like that anyway.
7.10am this morning repeat of the above.
Now a lesson kiddies, do not EVER list your personal details in the whois file you just dont know whose out there.
Listed price wrongly on my website. Some forum members of a particular forum discover the error pricing which is way below my cost.
Immediately received an order for 5 pieces of the item. Told him that I list the price wrongly. The 'customer' refuses to accept my explanation and insist that I deliver at that price.
Tell him as stated on my site prices are subject to change without notice.
Many, many, many nasty emails and calls and post all sorts of 'reviews' of my site all over the place.
Some people just have alot of time on hand.
Emailing you is one thing... calling your house is way beyond that. I would suggest going to your local police station and asking them what to do in such a case. Even if the local police station isn't the place to go to get it solved, they'll point you in the right direction and tell you what you need to do.
Now a lesson kiddies, do not EVER list your personal details in the whois file you just dont know whose out there.
Most aren't a threat... they just annoy you worse than you've ever been annoyed in your life.
Yes I did think of calling the police but no real threats have been issued Ive set my phone up not to accept anon callers.
If she persists then I think Ill report her to BT and see what happens.
Thanks all, its kinda nice to know im not the one on the receiving end.
Yes I did think of calling the police but no real threats have been issued Ive set my phone up not to accept anon callers.
If she's persisted this much, it might be classified as harassment. I certainly hope that the law doesn't permit or support that type of behavior.
December I take an order which is later refunded
Sorry to rain on the parade but if you took her money you have accepted her order. Even if it was a pricing mistake and you were selling a £1000 item for £1 it's a valid contract.
It could be argued in court that if you did not have any stock you should not have advertised the product and that even if you did advertise it you should not have taken her money. "it's an automated system" probably won't wash.
I don't condone harrasment, my point is I'm not sure whether you were within your rights to give a refund if she didn't ask for one.
The bad news: we missed the "sale". :(
For a small business, taking a loss of that sort isn't practical. That's why it's a good idea to have terms that allow for order cancellation for any reason, and that state that typographic errors aren't binding. While these terms might be superseded by local laws, it's certainly better to have them than not.
Immediately received an order for 5 pieces of the item. Told him that I list the price wrongly. The 'customer' refuses to accept my explanation and insist that I deliver at that price.
Isn't not honoring a listed price illegal?
did she sound nice by any chance?
I would be quite happy to act as your CR person if required.
Shak
That's why it's a good idea to have terms that allow for order cancellation for any reason, and that state that typographic errors aren't binding.
"Terms" on your website do not override the law. If you list something at a certain price, you are legally obligated to sell it at that price.
If you list something at a certain price, you are legally obligated to sell it at that price.
I'd be interested in seeing the federal/state/whatever laws that govern this.
Dell screws up the pricing on their computers and accessories all the time, and they absolutely will *NOT* honor orders on items that are priced wrong.
Wasn't too long ago that a Dell price mistake was pointed out on techbargains.com - some $600 PC listed at $159 or something silly like that. Their site was swamped with orders and crashed in the middle of trying to place my order. Several co-workers all placed orders for multiple quantity and, to a tee, not a single one of those orders was honored.
So how can Dell, one of the largest computer retailers in the world, get away with something like that if it's illegal?
"Terms" on your website do not override the law. If you list something at a certain price, you are legally obligated to sell it at that price.
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on television, but I believe that this is not exactly correct (at least in the US).
According to the Federal Trade Commission, in "Guides Against Bait Advertising" (16 CFR PART 238)
"Sec. 238.0 Bait advertising defined.1Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised."
The phrase here seems to be "alluring but insincere." I don't believe one could stretch "insincere" to mean "accidental."
Here's a link to the entire guide [ftc.gov...]
There is also a question/response in the FTC FAQ on their website, which states:
What responsibility does a company have to make sure that prices are accurate?
In many jurisdictions, companies are legally required to charge no more than the advertised or shelf price for a product, so good pricing practices are important for both customer satisfaction and a company's bottom line. For tips on accurate pricing practices in advertising and in retail stores, ask the FTC for Good Pricing Practices? SCAN DO.
From this answer, it would seem that there is no federal requirement to sell items at advertised prices, only a requirement that no intent to bait-and-switch exist.
It does allow that SOME jurisdictions might compel retailers to honor advertised pricing, but I suspect that its rare. It isn't usually the intent of governments to bankrupt businesses (small or large) due to a misplaced decimal point in an advertisement.
Your mileage may vary.
--Mike
So how can Dell, one of the largest computer retailers in the world, get away with something like that if it's illegal?
Amazon did the same thing last year with a wireless keyboard/mouse combo for 9.99. In their terms and conditions, it notes that they're not obligated to sell you the item at the advertised price in the event of a typo.
If you list something at a certain price, you are legally obligated to sell it at that price. <
wrong
Actually, it's NOT wrong in the UK.
A contract has to have an offer and an acceptance.
When you price an item the legal position is not that you are offering to sell it for that price. But when the buyer gives you his card details he is offering to make a purchase at that price. If you accept his payment you are completing a valid contract.
There are rules against baiting as discussed earlier.
I think that people who know there is a pricing mistake and try to exploit that are the scum of the earth. OK, flame me if you will, but that's my take. At the same time merchants who intentionally/repeatedly bait customers should be shut down.
My original question was regarding the reasons for the refund in this particular case.
December I take an order which is later refunded.
On a more personal experience note, our company is forever canceling orders and refunding money. Sometimes it's because we ran out of the product, sometimes it's because the customer is undesirable (a.k.a. previous fraud). In a few case we are just not allowed to ship the item to their area.
We have many lawyers and compliance officers around here. If it were illegal, we wouldn't do it.
Nothing says you have to honor a price. You just can't try to sell them something else if the price isn't honored.
"Terms" on your website do not override the law. If you list something at a certain price, you are legally obligated to sell it at that price.
This is incorrect. I am not legally obligated to sell an advertised item to everyone and anyone. There are people whom I will not make orders for at all, usually because they attempted/committed fraud, but sometimes just because they were exceptionally rude or wasted far too much of my time. Going by the above quote, just advertising my work on my website constitutes an obligation for me to make the advertised items for those same individuals as well as any obvious fraudsters who care to try. I can not be legally forced to accept an order. That would take away from my rights as a business owner as well as an artist. I happen to utilize this right quite often - whenever I feel there's a decent chance that any payment obtained in such a transaction will later be taken away in the form of a chargeback or bounced check.
My accepting an order by taking payment *is* a contract with obligations such as my guarantee and craftsmanship warrantee. I can certainly choose whether or not to enter into such a contract. Likewise, I am sure that I am as entitled to end said contract by refunding payment should I find later that I am unable to fulfill the contract as specified, just as those customers whose payment is rejected after their order is made can, and do, back out of their end quite often.
That is the law in the U.S. and probably virtually every other country.
I doubt many would go into the newspaper or publishing business, if they could be infinitely liable for every obvious price typo.
----------
This is a bit simplistic. Where the error is not so obvious or where the buyer has relied on the posted price in some way, courts may rule otherwise.
If the situation were the other round, there would nothing we can do about it either. ie. customer ordering some non-stock, expensive items that were higher that our competition and when we deliver to them at some remote location on the country, they refuse to take delivery.
A customer is one that gives you a profit on the transaction, anything else outside that they aren't really your customer. And in this situation, that chap is an opportunist striking at an obvious mistake.
I had no reason to disbelive what I saw and listed the item in good faith on my site - only when I came to buy it myself did I find out it hadnt gone in to production.
In effect Im attempting to perform the impossible which if I remember correctly from my Uni days makes the contract invalid.
In the real world (bricks and mortar) I have refused to sell to customers that have in the past been rude or insulting to staff. About 3 in the last 15 years.
I have no obligation to sell anything to any one that im sure. Though that would defeat the object of having a shop... I think.
Oh and a point to note, If it had of been an Essex girl id be dead by now, most of 'em are bigger than the men! I bet this one's a right mong so calm down.
Places like Amazon will only honour their prices once a confirmation of the purchase has been made, i.e. just before shipment. If no confirmation e-mail is sent then there is no contract.
I had a confirmation and they still cancelled my order.
Not true. If you have used NetBanx, WorldPay, PayPal, NoChex, FastPay, 2CheckOut or any other similar system, then the customer has authorised the payment without interaction from the merchant.
Also, if it were a suspected fraudulent transaction you are stating that it is not legal to cancel the order and refund the card?
If you have used NetBanx, WorldPay, PayPal, NoChex, FastPay, 2CheckOut or any other similar system, then the customer has authorised the payment without interaction from the merchant
When using a PDQ or electronic terminal to process payments you may not receive the money till days later but the fact that your payment processor has granted authorisation is sufficient for the customer to claim that you've taken the money. Whether the money is in your account or not is immaterial. And if you have an automated system of getting authorisation it's up to you to make sure the price is right and that you have stock before getting authorisation. It doesn't differ from manual authorisation one iota.
Every merchant would use the excuse you provided for a lot of things otherwise ;-)
Also, if it were a suspected fraudulent transaction you are stating that it is not legal to cancel the order and refund the card?
If it was a suspicious transaction to start with then you shouldn't have taken the money. If something emerged subseqently that made the transaction breach your written guidelines (you do have written guidelines, don't you?!) then you may have a case to give a refund.
And just how do you do that on an automated system, such as NetBanx or PayPal? If you want pre-auth from them, you have to pay extra. A PDQ machine may be a different case.
And it's interesting how people are stating that you may not be authorised to REFUND a card. I'm sure you can refund a card for any reason - suppose it hits your fraud filter and you decide to refund. It turns out to be a genuine order - can the customer sue you or get the card processors to close you down because you had no authorisation to refund their card?
I am sorry - but these rules play perfectly into the hands of a fraudster. You are doing wrong by supplying the order. You are doing wrong by refunding the order. You are doing wrong by ignoring the situation and awaiting a chargeback. What do you do? Because from what you have stated - it makes little difference, whatever you do is wrong!
If it is a stolen card, can you explain just how you process the card automatically through an automated payment method without charging the card yet still being able to see the AVS and CVV results? On some systems it is not possible (or costs more money).
A PDQ is fine at the moment, by Visa and MasterCard have been pushing to make it against their terms and conditions to accept credit cards on the internet except through a third party such as WorldPay, PayPal and so on...
I mean - it's up to you to make sure you have the stock? Think about it, you have 20 left of a limited edition product. So now, everyone has to implement accurate stock control on their websites? Of course you do - what if the customer orders 25? You would have to refuse the transaction automatically.
What if it is special order? You can't process the card until you are sure you have the stock? And then the card does not validate? It could be a £5000 widget.
Visa/MC/AMEX rules just do not cut it anymore. They are not up to the modern way of internet workings where the merchant is not present, I'm afraid. This is a new case that is not in their rules: customer not present and merchant not present. Surely the transaction needs to be MANUALLY accepted by both the customer and the merchant?
But this customer has little case. She ordered something, it was no longer available - this is what they call a mistake (I'm sure you've made one of them before), but that is not the end of the story - the mistake was corrected in the best way possible by a full refund.
As stated by Essex_Boy, the product ordered was still believed to be in production. I am sure there are products on your site that get discontinued by the manufacturer without warning. Getting everything into stock is certainly not an option for some businesses (if I got one of everyting I sell into stock, the cost would be around £2million). It is the manufacturers fault and Essex_Boy is caught in the middle of the fight.
it makes little difference, whatever you do is wrong
Yes, almost. As a merchant myself I do find that very frustrating, I do find it annoying, and I think that many consumer laws are biased so far in favour of the customer that they are not fair to the merchants. However, that doesn't change the fact that the law does not differentiate for automated payment systems. You still have a duty to not charge the card if the goods are not in production, not charge the card if there is adequate indication that the transaction is fraudulent, and not charge the card if you don't have enough goods in stock to fulfil the order.
