Forum Moderators: buckworks
December I take an order which is later refunded.
A few days later I receive an email complaint via my CC processor. The customer wants a full explanation as to why the order was cancelled.
Before I can reply, she emails the CC people again demanding an answer stating she wont go away (no kidding).
I give her a full explanation - even sending her a free gift.
some days later receive an email stating the reason I gave was not good enough and she wants her order - problem is the item is not made any more. Replied giving her the same answer as before.
Receive further emails - all of which I ignore.
Last night receive two angry emails balling me out in MY personal email. One of which shows my home address from the whois file.
Ignore both.
9.30 telephone call from said lady - goes to ansa phone - 'I know your there picking up your phone' something like that anyway.
7.10am this morning repeat of the above.
Now a lesson kiddies, do not EVER list your personal details in the whois file you just dont know whose out there.
So, for example, I cannot issue a February invoice to you and state that payment must be made in January of the same year. If you did not pay on time (the impossible), the law does not cover me to take you to the small claims court or to charge interest on the impossible request.
It is the same as saying that you cannot charge the card until the goods are shipped. Well, that means that all these processors are in breach of contract as they charge the card immediately.
Well, that means that all these processors are in breach of contract as they charge the card immediately.
Nobody said that the law always made sense. Nobody said it was consistent.
It is impossible to deliver an item that is not in production but you are ignoring the obvious points that he should not have taken the money for it in the first place. A court could view that very, very seriously indeed. Giving a refund is itself not a magnamious act given the circumstances of him discovering the goods did not exist.
That he blames someone else for his lack of knowledge in the matter of stock - or lack thereof - does not absolve him of responsibility. He took someone's money for goods that did not exist. The law would see that customer had a reason to feel aggrieved. Any argument that Essexboy did not know about the non-existence would be considered only in the context of "mitigating circumstances".
The law also now extends my legal obligations from a collector of taxes (VAT) to an enforcer. HMCE, with all the tools at their disposal, and massive budgets, can't catch the carousel fraudsters but I'm required to ensure that my supply chain is clean of carousel frauds. Otherwise I .... well, not just have to give a refund... I go to jail. Just as accountants have to rat on you if they think you are up to anything suspicious (wef last year). And accountants can go to jail for not grassing you up. Just as solicitors can (again, wef last year)
That's just the way business is. (I'd say something about this government and left of centre ideas... but that would be political and may get the post deleted). If you can't take the heat - work in a cold storage ;-)
It's true though, it is getting more and more difficult to be confident that just because you try your best to run an honest business that you won't get put in the slammer for a few years. More rules, more red tape, more pressures on small businesses, more T&Cs in favour of the big boys, more companies with big legal firms behind them, litigous customers, governments that are willing to offload their social obligations on to businesses on pain of jail terms, governments that are eager to impose onerous "social" conditions onto businesses (is your shop that sells "ski equipment" disabled friendly? And do you have a ramp for wheelchairs? Do you give your employees paternity leave? is there a smoker who lives three doors down who contaminates the air around your shop?), more ways you can be defrauded (a courier driver is threatening to sue us for tripping on the pavement outside our premises. He did not get hurt but he took 3 days off work, went fishing, and the council is footing the legal bill for him to sue us) ....etc do make for a depressing outlook for small.biz.
It is the same as saying that you cannot charge the card until the goods are shipped.
I think people have to accept that its an imperfect world and they cant always get what they want, however in this me orientated world I shant hold my breath waiting for this wonderous event to occur.
Justa footnote, this lovely lady has emailed my hosting company saying Ive ripped her off and im a fraudster. Nice.
There are card processors (large companies) out there that do not give you the CVV and AVS results until the card is actually charged. You cannot confirm that the card number even exists until you charge it. Complicated? I think so...
> how you do it on an automated system is your problem
Again, third party payments are handled completely differently and do not follow card rules (even those authorised by Visa and Mastercard).
I do not have any copy of Visa and Mastercards regulations. I have accounts with WorldPay, NetBanx, PayPal and none have sent them or informed me of them. I do have their own terms and conditions, however, which do not state what you are stating. Are PDQ and third-party companies under different terms?
P.S. It isn't the law, you can't be put in jail for charging and refunding a card. It couldn't even be classed as theft as you have returned the money. The worst that could happen would be you lose you merchant account.
That's nice about the hosting company! Have they contacted you or did she? Have you given her a copy of the manufacturer's phone number to see if there are any other distributors of the same product? (If someone else has the same thing on their site, she may give up on you whilst she torments someone else!).
I could have a similar situation: A customer ordered a discontinued product. I am sorry, but when a large organisation discontinues a non-stock product, there is very little I can do. It has been over a week and I have charged the card as the product was still on the suppliers list (live, downloaded list). I assumed it was still available. Because it is over seven days old, has been processed by WorldPay and would have timed out after the seven days, leaving me with no money and no access to the card number to process it again, I had no choice but to process the payment. Now I am going to have to refund it. Fortunately, most customers have that thing called: Common Sense!
I usually explain to the customer that THEY processed the card, when they assume that their order has gone out because the card has been charged. I have never had a complaint back about it yet; particularly when I explain that it is for their security and that only the Royal Bank of Scotland (WorldPay) have access to the credit card details. Gives them a sense of security.
Yes. In the UK, if you put a price on an item the price is 'an offer to treat' that is 'an invitation to make an offer around that price'. The offer may or may not be accepted by the seller. There is no obligation to sell - even at the price you advertised.
For a contract to exist you need three things:-
1. Agreement. That is the two sides must have the same thing in mind.
2. Intention. You must both intend the agreement is binding.
3. Consideration. That is something must be exchanged by both sides, so that say, and offer of a free gift is not a binding contract.
With a credit card sale I'd have to look up case law to see exactly when the buyer could have been said to have paid - or indeed if a refund invalidates the contract.
I should imagine it does - but that is instinct talking - not research.
At the end of the day whatever the civil rights and wrongs I think the would-be buyer has strayed into 'harrassment'. A police matter. If you can persuade any of the lazy so-an-sos to actually do the job they are paid for!
Good luck. I wouldn't sell at the wrong price. You've showed good faith. If all else fails you could throw yourself at the mercy of the court and ask them to do as they see fit. Its amazing what a sympathetic judge can think up, regardless of what the law says and lets face it - you are dealing with a nutter here.
For a contract to exist you need three things
Why can't all customers have the common sense that most of PCInk's customers (and "most" of mine) do?
