Forum Moderators: open
The Classics.
On a daily basis you can expect to see at least one of these:
A spam site is #1 on Google! or it's variant
Google is full of spam. I give up!
Then there's the Anti-Dmoz posts which are usually followed by a flurry of Pro-Dmoz posts.
But of course, the number one most frequent topic has got to be:
Help me Pleassssse.... I've Been Banned!
It's kind of funny, in a dark way, when at the end of their plea they then presumptiously appeal to GoogleGuy for help.
On the rare occasion that GoogleGuy does appear, it's usually to tell them that they've been banned for automatic queries or something like that.
Of course, it's not funny when it happens to you, and it's always nice to help out.
At least rcjordan has admitted culpability.
lawman
And you know the reason why? -- We all get outdone buy the competition on occasion nnd we all make mistakes now and again.
It's Old News....
Nick
Could that become the new header for the Google News forum?
It's about Google News after all, not my auto generated content sitting at #3..:)
It won't stop. It's only going to become more prevalent as Google tweaks its algo each month. Also we have to keep in mind that SEO/SEM is becoming more mainstream so there are many new folks who haven't a clue about what is going on and they end up at WebmasterWorld where answers to all their questions lie in the archives.
Problem is, very few are going to dig through those archives to find an answer to their question. It's much easier to post a topic and get immediate answers instead of digging through months and months of valuable information.
As a veteran and long time reader at many boards, you become accustomed to the repetitive posts. Sometimes you tune them out, sometimes you get involved. I guess it's all a matter of how you feel that day.
Keep in mind that the newer members need something to chat about too! To them being banned or finding spam is of utmost importance and this board allows them the opportunity to share their feelings on all related issues.
We have to sometimes remove ourselves from the everyday bump and grind. We have to sit back and think to ourselves, "hey, I was there once, I fully understand what that member is feeling". Remember too, that there are plenty of newer members lurking about who will be quick to answer those repetitive posts and provide the member with replies to their questions.
It's older than you think. I could run a f&r on "google" replacing it with "altavista" and it would be 1999 again.
Seriously, martinibuster, it's a problem we moderators have been wrestling with and are unsure how to get beyond this.
Turned out the WW search feature wasn't working. I discovered that it was more effective to dig around using the Google Toolbar to do a site search.
So part of the blame had to be the WW search feature. I don't know, may have been fixed.
The Gootle News board is the busiest, forum here and I'm sure the biggest attraction to new members so the way WebmasterWorld chooses to define it is of huge importance to everyone.
I'll happily asy something has to be done, I'll even (when pushed) put forward a few serious ;) suggestions.
I would hate to have to make the actual decision though.....
Nick
Even after being here time, and again, they might not know..
We can't automatically assume that just because someone just started posting that they haven't already searched and/or been reading through the forum. One just last night, first post ever, HAD been reading and still wasn't clear on something. No problem with that, it's perfectly understandable. I replied myself and some more posts have come - it's actually a very interesting topic.
There are other issues, though, that either aren't news at all, or have little or nothing to do with how to do a good site and do well with Google.
The one about being banned is kind of sad because people get so afraid, and sometimes they haven't been banned at all. BUT - they've had FEAR instilled in them, and I'm afraid that's something that isn't very hard to have happen with the mass proliferation of spam posts. People get fearful even if they haven't spammed, and don't ever have any intention of spamming.
That is the number one topic I love to hate - the spam posts that accomplish absolutely nothing, solve nothing, add nothing to anyone's knowledge, and serve no other purpose other than to provide a place for some to whine, make self-righteous proclamations, try to snitch in half a dozen ways, and annoy other people intensely, simply because it's like running around in a circle going noplace but digging a bigger ditch in the ground.
The spam posts are not only repetitive, they're counter-productive, spread negative emotions, and help absolutely no one. Plus - they're quite borderline where the charter is concerned and contrary to what clearly indicated on the WebmasterWorld homepage - "News and discussion for the independent web professional."
If someone can tell me what's professional about the white hat equivalent of self-righteous evangelistic recruiting to a "noble cause" or whining and moaning and just plain venting, I wish they'd clue me in. I fail to see it, and don't have a clue as to what's being accomplished by it. I would love to know if the membership is deriving benefit - positive things that help them with their sites.
They give people the opportunity to discuss issues that are important to them. Maybe not evreyone leaves not having learned anything, but i certainly do, with each thread, and i am sure others do as well. At the very least you can see someone elses point of view, even if it is totally contrary to your own.
As for WW charter - when was that established? When the site was? And how quickly does this industry change?
WW has evolved even in the few months ive been here, so im assuming it has changed a lot since it was born.
On the issue of repetitive newbie posts:
Ive dealt with this a lot on another forum.
I was the one constantly answering the posts and the forum had no moderators and very few regulars who took the time to answer the queries (a handful of us). Oh and a lot more visitors each month than WW.
So i compiled all the generic posts into articles and site up a new site that dealt with all these issues.
Im not saying that is the solution here, but perhaps the libraries in each forum could be more cleary advertised so newbies could refer to them instead of posting.
WW background reading if you will.
And with all due respect to the mods, the issue you are all here moaning about is as trivial and ancient as the repeated newbie posts on various subjects.
Its an issue that heavily populated forums moderators have had to deal with for years.
Question?
I realise this is a foo thread and is just a light hearted discussion, but will any change come out of it?
I posted an article on internally promoting your pages as a reply to a thread recently.
Dont know what the URL is, but perhaps someone can do a site search for it? It may be useful... ;)
JOAT :)
>I realise this is a foo thread and is just a light hearted discussion
martinibuster is a serious professional webmaster, in spite of the light nature of his post. I always listen when he has something to say. :)
Just thought that the libraries arent too obvious for new members (or us recent posts junkies :)).
The link at the top gives a big ol list of threads - im not going to spend time looking through it all (only just noticed it writing this thread actually), and i practically live here.
And when you do go into a thread - its just another big long list of posts.
Personally, if i arrive in the morning, and theres a thread thats more than say 30 posts long i dont even look at it.
I cant be bothered reading down the posts and i dont want to post anything haven read only a few - cos i know that it will already been brought up.
If im not going to do that - most newbies wont.
My point was (and is) that if you want to reduce the amount of topics that are repeated over and over again, then a nicely accessible, well structured list of article / key points are required.
Newbies wont read through old posts (especially not the long, juicy ones). They can rarely use the site search effectively. Whether they should put more effort into it is irrelevant. Heh, my visitors should spend more money at my site, but they dont! :)
Someone said this post that SEM and SEO is becoming mass market. Thats true. And it has to be catered for.
IMHO anyway! :)
Hope no-one took offence at my comments - none were intended - i fully believe that this is one of the top sites on the net.
These posts are only my opinions of possible solutions to the problems you raised.
JOAT :)
<added>....martinibuster is a serious professional webmaster, in spite of the light nature of his post. I always listen when he has something to say.
I can believe that and im going to hide under my bed right now.... :) </added>
However, I wonder if perhaps from a usability perspective, if perhaps the search link should be made a little more obvious? Maybe make it bigger, or more prominent.
I think I was here a couple months before I discovered the "recent posts" link.
Is it happy hour yet? Yes...
:) Y
I think a nice wee guide on how to use it effectively wouldnt go amiss either. Goes for the library as well.
Theres a helluva lot of information here! :)
JOAT
Probably the biggest problem here, there is too much good stuff.
:) What a nice problem to have, eh?
I have only been here for about a month, and it took me a bit of time to notice that there was a search facility. It is just one of a series of small type links far away from the action. Nobody looks there.
The site search should be linked from just besides the "Post new topic" button, and it should be just as visually prominent.
Just my 2 øre (thats the local currency around here).
René
Yep, nice problem! But I think martinibuster was pointing out at first that there are a few different areas that get repetitive treatment. I see them as falling into 4 categories; he did indicate a few.
1. Informational optimization factors and algo-related discussions
2. Crawls, Updates and Everflux
3. People wondering if they're banned or penalized
4. Repeated spam discussions
I think those are different types of issues and maybe they should be evaluated differently. It could depend on what most of the members find helpful and/or enjoyable, as we can determine from not only from member input, but from observing, over time, who's participating in the different areas of discussion.
Looking at it from the perspective of what WebmasterWorld is about, it says on the main page "News and discussion for the independent web professional.
Granted, some members are new or aspiring professionals and most others are usually generously willing to help them out. But out of those broad classifications, which do and which don't serve the needs of the members who are currently beyond the beginning stages, having reached the place of being active business professionals on the web?
Of the four categories that you mentioned that get repeated a lot, i think the first three could be easily reduced by writing up some guides to these topics based on and refering to previous discussions.
IE, How to tell if your site has been banned? Everflux, whats that? Whats all this fuss about the update?
After all, WW tends to focus more on discussions than on news (granted, news is discussed... :)). I just think that some articles on generic subjects would be less daunting for new users (and exisiting users) than long posts, and would serve to answer basic questions.
A FAQ if you will.
On the issue of spam discussions - yes, the issues get repeated a lot, but i think it differs from the other topics.
The other topics are questions being asked (usually), but the spam discussions tend to be generic current affairs discussions.
In these cases, its just a lot of people putting their opinion across - in the other topics its people offering or asking for advice.
The former is harder to cater for, but i think the latter could be addressed.
Just my 2 c! ;)
JOAT
<added> yeh there is too much good stuff...:)</added>
It's older than you think. I could run a f&r on "google" replacing it with "altavista" and it would be 1999 again.Seriously, martinibuster, it's a problem we moderators have been wrestling with and are unsure how to get beyond this.
My background is very much as an end-user of moderated mailing lists (ntbugtraq, various securityfocus) where the mods pre-filter *everything* and although I wouldn't dream of suggesting something as heavy-handed as that, what about...
Delete the repetive posts and then stickying the relevant faq / site search links to the offender with a nice note - this gets them an answer which at the end of the day is what we all want and keeps the forums for getting too clogged with the same stuff.
This then gets rid of the "me too" factor when posting questions which really could have been answered if they had read the generic examples given in previous posts.
How many people think its okay to ask a "me too" type question because they see so many posted already?
Of those how many people would still think its okay to ask a "me too" type question if they didn't see a wide variety of them?
Also if the same tired old topics keep cropping up why not add to the site code so that it does a quick word density check? If say "google", "banned" and "help" had a suitable densities it forces the submit process to an intermediate stage rather than just submit-n-go as we have at the moment.
This stage which basically points them to a few *relevant* FAQs and recent posts on the subject (as each set of words which enabled this feature would have a set of these attached) with a bit of text saying something to the effect of "we think you might be about to ask a question which lots of other people have asked before, please take a look at these before you post, they might answer your questions really well".
If they then choose to post after being told all this then that's their choice but it might be enough to make the remainder more managable...
<note>
Okay I'm nervous about posting this because everyone else happens to be an admin or senior and also its going to be something which lots of people feel strongly about but I'll post it anyway and see what happens.
</note>
- Tony
This would mean making it more prominent, cos you cant guess that a particullar user would make a particullar thread.
Heres an idea:
Would it be possible to direct new users to a custom page with a whole load of FAQ's and site information?
JOAT
ps Tony - shared your nervousness mate! :)
Problem is, very few are going to dig through those archives to find an answer to their question. It's much easier to post a topic and get immediate answers instead of digging through months and months of valuable information.
[edited by: turk182 at 11:24 am (utc) on Dec. 12, 2002]
i think in terms of usability that it would be better to have the information pre post rather than mid post.
Oh definitely! But AFAIK there is no way to realistically do this on the client-side in realtime so in my mind the next best place was once the system knows what you want to post.
If it's just the user-friendly issue which bothers you why not combine it with a spell check or some other valued-added feature so that it seems less like a "big stick" with which to scare newbies with?
- Tony
Yesterday I was looking for a thread from a few months ago (I think) which discussed a new site that was giving away free e:mail accounts. Everyone was scrambling to get particular account names. I know I signed up, but do you think I can remember the site name ... and I stupidly forgot to bookmark it!
There are a few things which might help improve the quality and useability of WebmasterWorld for newbies and veterans alike, but which would likely take a great deal of time and may not be feasable.
I'll throw them out for discussion anyway.
Just a few thoughts.
Good points there, but im not sure about limiting the post counts.
You really cant quantify how long a discussion would take.
JOAT :)
[webmasterworld.com...]
-New feature at google
-Google Algo question
-Google Toolbar
-My url is doing badly
-Spam question
-Help me Pleassssssse....I've Been Banned!
-Other (Type subject below).
Anyone typing in Help me Pleassssssse....I've Been Banned! will have their post redirected automatically to a subforum called Help me Pleassssssse....I've Been Banned! and an autoresponse will give them the usual response... Other topics can be redirected to the appropriate place as well. You get the idea.
Google News
Google Toolbar
Google Adwords
When submitting a new post for a Google fora, the poster would select the forum ... Google News>
A list of "major" topics would be presented to the poster who must then select from the list:
Cache
Dynamic URL's
File Formatting & Robots Text
Googlebot
Graphics
Keywords
Pagerank - Link Count
Update
etc., etc. etc.
So let's say the poster selects Google News>Update.
All recent "Google update" threads could then be sorted and viewed. A note saying:
"Please try to avoid opening a new thread if it is already being discussed." "View the list of recent threads below related to this topic to find answers or take part in recent discussions".
"If you are announcing that the Google update has begun, please avoid any false starts by verifying the update. To verify:
"If this is something new ... please feel free to submit your post!"
I think this would help the poster find whatever they are looking for prior to submitting a new post if they are not quite adept at using the site yet. Veterans would (or at least should) know if their post is new to the topic or not. and can skip to the topic they want to write their post.
You get my drift. Lots of work though and a pretty radical change to the site to say the least!
A spam site is #1 on Google! or it's variant
Google is full of spam. I give up
We can't forget about those. ;)
