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But in this case it's about a directory type of site, aimed at all of Europe. Language will be English.
Where would you be looking for sites targeting all of Europe? Where and how would you be promoting such a site?
I know for a fact from my Danish keyword databases that thousands of Danish users are using search engines to find other search engines. However, they use keywords like Google and other Danish search engine brands suggesting that they don't know how to type in a URL.
Some use the search term "portal" in connection with for example "real estate" (in Danish). Others use "search engine" (in Danish) together with a country. I guess you would see a similar search pattern on Google and other international search engines.
Even though you are not localising the site I would definitely localise the marketing and target the directories and search engines that have a lot new and less experienced users. More experienced user tends to use international search engines and directories when looking for international or foreign sites.
I hope this is useful to you.
(edited by: Torben_Lundsgaard at 8:18 pm (utc) on May 30, 2002)
Think about it: Where do people look for pan-european sites/issues on the web?
Do you know of any important european directories?
Where in existing directories do those sites have a home?
Let's therefore say that the mission is promoting:
a) a special interest directory
b) aimed at all of Europe
c) specifically aimed at a subset of b interested in the topic covered by the directory
d) only in English language (and therefore, aimed at a subset of c who is able to read/understand English)
Let's separate for the moment directory placement from SEs placement.
You will have to look for directories throughout Europe accepting English language sites, as well as international directories having a "SEs and Directories" category, where you will submit the homepage of the site.
International directories usually have a general category for this kind of sites (Comp/Int/Searching/Directories/ [dmoz.org] in ODP or Comp_and_Int/Int/WWW/Searching_the_Web/SEs_and_Dirs/Directories/ [dir.yahoo.com] in Yahoo). Notice that in ODP there is also a specific Special interest Directories [dmoz.org] category, which may apply depending on the level of specialization of this site.
Local directories sometimes accept English language sites in their index, sometimes not. You will therefore have to choose those accepting non-[local] language sites and wade through their category structure to find the most appropriate one (logic tells that it should be under Computer/Internet/Something and/or Reference/Something) Notice that several big local players (that is, local directories accepting in their main index only [local language] sites and having a big share of the [local language] public) usually partner with, or use the results/structure of, one of the Big International Players, be it another directory like ODP or Yahoo or a SE like Fast or Google, with the aim to provide their users with good results for searches in non-[local language]. In Italy for example Virgilio accepts only Italian sites in the index, but returns Google results for searches in languages other than Italian, and displays ODP directory for non-Italian sites. Nomade (Tiscali) does the same for the French arena using Fast results. In all these cases you will do well with a presence in the Big Players.
For SEs placement, in addition to the Big International Players you will have again to wade through local language ones, selecting those accepting non-[local language] sites. Again, in your research you will find some using one of the Big Players to provide additional or alternative results for searches in non-[local language], and here again you wil do well with a presence in these.
Since you don't want to localize the site, I'd go with building up at least a localized *introduction to the site* in several languages, and link it consistently from and to the main site. These localized pages/sections could serve both as entry pages for the users (explaining them that they are entering an English language only site, and what's the site about, etc.) and as doorways for good SEs placement, since you will push there relevant [language] keywords. Fill these pages with good explanatory content, make them a real *introduction to the site* (what's about, what the user will find there, how to contact the company, how to submit a site/document for inclusion, etc.,depending on the kind of site you are building up)
This way you will have an Italian user (taken as an example)
a) searching on one of the Big SEs for "specialized widgets directory" getting the main page of your site
b) searching on one of the Big SEs for "directory specializzata in robe varie" (translation of the above) getting the doorway/entry page in Italian
c) searching on one of the bigger Italian-only directories for "specialized widgets directory" getting the main page of your site as an alternative/additional result from Google/Fast/etc.
d) searching on one of the bigger Italian-only directories for "directory specializzata in robe varie" NOT getting your site, but probably this isn't your target since they wouldn't be able to read English anyway
e) searching on any of the local, accepting-English-sites directories or SEs, for "specialized widgets directory" getting the mainpage of your site.
f) searching on any of the local, accepting-English-sites directories or SEs, for "directory specializzata in robe varie" (translation of the above) getting the doorway/entry page in Italian.
an absolute must would be a localised language page for every language as entry page. It makes asking for links from other local directories much easier as well.
For the rest: Googleselect/espotting/overture if you refuse to translate further.
Reading all of your answers confirms my old suspicion concerning european
affairs yet again:
L'Europe - n'existe pas!
At least not for people inside Europe. It's different for sure for folks from
outside Europe.
So how to focus promoting a cross-european site?
Let's say my site is about widgets, which in localized versions exist in all
countries. The chances that Italians, French or Spanish folks go searching for
European widgets are very very slim. They will either be looking for Spanish,
French, whatever widgets - or just plain widgets, without localizing the search
phrase.
Agreed?
Lets assume for the moment this is true. Consequently promoting a
resource on european widgets in Europe would inevitably mean breaking up the
topic. French widgets, Italian widgets, Polish widgets...that's what would have
to be promoted.
From that perspective it makes a lot of sense to put entrance pages up for the
different languages spoken in the countries which the site covers. Certainly
should help a little in getting the subsections of the site listed in local
directories.
The reason I'm concentrating on directories right now is of course the
traffic they can bring.
But more important are the links from those directories. Optimal would be to
have listings in appropriate widgets categories in local directories for all
languages and countries the site covers. It's a headstart to gaining targeted
linkpop for the different, local sections of the site.
A probably perfect solution would be to have "French widgets" in the description
and title of the listings, and "widgettes francaises" in the cat's name.
That would bring boost for ranking under "french widgets" for the whole section
of the site. Still the correspondance between cat's name and the french entrance
page would allow for ranking under "widgettes francaises".
Another thought on the importance of local directories: Getting listed there
improves the chances to get links from local sites. Webmasters of local sites
are likely to check out the cats every once in a while and since my site is not
in their language they do not neccessarily see me as competition.
The main source of traffic of course would be search engines.
One thing is clear: without localizing, i.e. translating the site an important
share of all searches done is lost on the site. The great majority of searches
are restricted to local language per default.
The only chance here would be for those localized entrance pages you proposed.
But the widgets in question are a topic with an audience probably willing and
able to read english to a far greater extent as the average surfer. Also the
widgets in question are probably more searched for by Google users than AOL
users.
So the primary goal concerning search engines is to rank for searches on french
widgets, italian widgets, etc. on the major engines, i.e. Google, fast, AV, Ink, as well
as on the local engines in international searches.
Which brings me back to directories and the targeted links coming from good
listings in the right - local - categories.
Yeah, right - it's a tricky one...
disclaimer - je ne parlez francais
I've met a few spanish webbies lately and they all use <pronounced in spanish>guglee</pronounced in spanish>
So I guess they started in the states, spread through the English language and then from where Spanish and english (for example) crossed over they began implementing and entering the Spanish market. Likewise with german and italian, chinese, et al.. ¿
I think I would maybe start looking at stats and see from where any 'foreign' language creeps in and maybe aim a campaign at that language.
But then it would be easier if you have a target nacionality in the first place.
PS What does: je ne parlez francais . mean¿
And you discovered it now ? ;)
>> They will either be looking for Spanish,
French, whatever widgets - or just plain widgets, without localizing the search
phrase.
Or better they will be looking for the local language translation of the term "widgets". There is a big difference. Let's say we are talking about "software for computers". This is the English term, and the directory/site focuses on this topic. An Italian user will not search for "Italian software for computers", but for "software per computer" (being the English terms "software" and "computer" commonly used in Italian), but a French user will search for "logiciel pour ordinateurs", etc. Here the localized entry pages will come handy, serving the proper (localized) term to the local user.
Another variable to consider is multilinguality. Several [local language] users will search for *both* the [local language] term and the English one, and then compare the results (common search behaviour for Eu online population). From a pure marketing point of view, showing up in both kind of searches grants brownies to the resource found in the user's perception scale. Yeah, from pure SEO to branding, here we are...
Also notice that the less served with major/authoritative SEs and directories a geo-linguistic area is, the more [local] online population *tends* to search on International ones and with English terms, but still appreciates finding [local language] results, even though they are only a few (try to show up #1 in Google for "hotel reservations", and then try the same with the corresponding, uh, Latvian term -- you sure know the difference ;) )
>>But more important are the links from those directories. Optimal would be to
have listings in appropriate widgets categories in local directories for all
languages and countries the site covers.
I agree with you completely. Just consider that for getting a listing in appropriate widgets categories in local directories, or in [local language] sections of International ones, you need [local language] entry pages being a bit more content-rich than just... entry pages (i.e., more than just a page -- at least a mini-entry-site localized in that [local language])
>> A probably perfect solution would be to have "French widgets" in the description
and title of the listings, and "widgettes francaises" in the cat's name.
Uhmmm... depends. Let's throw away widgets for a moment since they can be confusing in this example.
a) Let's say your site/directory is about tourism in Europe. You will then have tourism in Italy, tourism in France, tourism in England, etc., that is, tourism in [Country]. Here you might find useful to have both the different English "turism in [Country]" keywords and *all* the corresponding localized versions (turismo in Italia, turismo in Francia, turismo in Inghilterra; tourisme en Italie, tourisme en France, tourisme en Angleterre; etc.) pushed up. IMHO, you can achieve this only optimizing the English pages for the different English kwds, and each different set of [local language] entry pages for the [local language] kwds sets. And have the English mainpage of the site in a "Tourism in Europe" category while having each of the [local language] entry pages in a different local-language-named category.
b) Let's say your site/directory is about software for computers. You will probably NOT have here sw for computer in Italy, SW for PC in France, SW for PC in England, etc., but just translated versions of this term in different [local language]. Here the [local language] entry pages will have to focuse on a smaller kwd set (translation in the different languages of the term "software for computer"). Not very different from the example given in (a) for directory placement, since IMHO the same local-language-named rule applies for the placement of different entry pages, but a different approach to optimizing them.
>> the widgets in question are a topic with an audience probably willing and
able to read english to a far greater extent as the average surfer
As you can see, the widgets example (not knowing how to convert these widgets in the actual topic of your directory) can be worked at least in 2 ways. But here again, don't forget that even fully bilingual users *tend* to search both in their primary language *and* in English, comparing results, and then choosing what they *perceive* being the most authoritative resource found. What do you think they will choose/visit: the one showing up in only one search or the one showing up in searches for different languages ?
Another point to consider, no matter which SEs or Directory is used for finding content, is that average, NON-fully-biliingual users, will seldom click on an English language result/link (in particular if they have alternatives available). OTOH, when clicking on a [local language] result/link where they are taught with a clear and promising explanation in their [local language] that this resource is an authoritative one but the following navigation will be in English, they will be more willing to proceed and make an effort using the little English they know.
>multilinguality. Several [local language] users will search for *both* the [local language] term and the English one, and then compare the results (common search behaviour for Eu online population).
Really? I must say - that's something I never considered. I'd assume generally people were searching first with language restricted - simply for two reasons: it's the default option on most engines, and most phrases are not multilingual.
Something like "Golf Hotel", working for many languages, is the rare exception.
Only - that's my assumption - when results are not satisfying they will do an unrestricted search, for phrases they expect to get more/better results.
So far we agree, but users comparing results between language restricted search and unrestricted?
To me unrestricted searching holds the promise of unknown territory - new stuff I did not know about.
It really would be interesting to have stats on restricted vs unrestricted searches.We have been touching on this in some discussions, but a there could be vast differences between users from different countries and languages.
Okay so distilling a few points out of this most insightful discussion:
Cross European web promotion for monolingual sites
- Forget about Europe. Europe can not be promoted to Europeans, in contrary to folks from outside Europe. Exceptions are topics specifically attached to European affairs, like currency issues, governmental issues, etc.
- Consequently you must target the different countries with different directories
- you should in any case try to target your keywords translated to all languages assigned to your targeted countries
- Consequently you need in any case to have some minimalistic site entry points translated to each language assigned to the targeted countries.
- To cover all searches assigned to your topic you should be present in unrestricted searches AND in searches restricted to specific languages
- Consequently go for listings in local directories in respective language AND for listings in English
- forget in most cases about targeting keyword plus country specification, as in "french widgets". A french user will search either for widgets in his own language, or for blue/red whatever widgets.
What important points did I forget?
if we all agree that you have to focus on europe country by country - then is this maybe an excellent example of where subdomains are best used?
Might come in handy here, BOL. Especially when incorporating those small localised entry pages Ettore and Vitaplease mentioned.
Additionally it would give the opportunity to have localized KW in the subdomain.
