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The webmasters submitting their sites aren't negatively concerned with the lack of sites.
I originally planned on filling out the directory before going public, but when editors were taking forever to add sites, the thought occurred to me that we could get the directory filled out a lot faster if we started promoting and getting submissions. We are only doing a fraction of the promotion we intend to do at this point, but the submissions are coming in fast, and it helps.
You can see how empty the directory is now - it would REALLY be sad if we didn't have the submissions we got from promoting the directory these last two months.
>>I would have thought around $10 one-time fee would be more acceptable. <<
I've said this many times - if the price is even a tiny concern to you, don't submit.
I recently submitted one of my sites to a topical directory (PR7 page) for $200, and I know it won't get any traffic. As in, I really doubt it'll get one click-through per month, but I feel the $200 was well-spent because it's a relevant link and it may (or may not) positively impact my SE ranking on search engines.
'>>The webmasters submitting their sites aren't negatively concerned with the lack of sites'<<
Of course web site owners won't be worried if they think that they are the only one's in that category.
Actually, I was thinking more about when users go to the site and see that their search won't be met.
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'>>You can see how empty the directory is now - it would REALLY be sad if we didn't have the submissions we got from promoting the directory these last two months'<<
Is this going to believed, when the directory is so empty?
(I'm not attacking you - just pointing out things from a surfers point of view)
Plus, I don't think it's a good idea to promote the fact that it's empty on a public forum
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>>'I've said this many times - if the price is even a tiny concern to you, don't submit.'<<
Okay I won't.
Why are you telling people not to submit? I can't see the logic behind this.
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Getting defensive on here won't do you any good.
Internet life is very cutthroat indeed, and in order to survive in the search world, you need a gimmick - and I don't see any such technology or service on your site that's different to any other out there.
You even called your enhanced listings 'Sponsered' - that isn't unique mate!
Sorry for being blunt, but it's true - I don't see anything different. Now, I'm not saying it don't have potential, as I think once it's filled, it may be good.
But that's going to depend on what you can offer.
Why should buyers come to you? That's what you have to think about.
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"I recently submitted one of my sites to a topical directory (PR7 page) for $200, and I know it won't get any traffic."
You would have been better submitting to Yahoo wouldn't you.
Personally, I don't think you will get clickthroughs from this site either. But I can see your thinking behind it.
To prove why I know what I'm talking about. I recently placed a link in KellySearch, but have only ever got 1 clickthrough from the site in about 12 months.
And they've been established for 200 years!
That's how I know.
You need to target, not go for PR value. Cos high PR Value don't mean targeted.
Since no username or password is required and the fact that you seem to be content bashing a person (after you thought it was worth signing up apparently) for no LEGITIMATE reason I would feel comfortable to say you are likely basing your comments on personal bias.
Where else on the web do you get 48 hour guaranteed review AND a prompt and courtious support forum that answers all questions in a timely manner? For a one time $40 fee no less?
If you're category has few or no others in it, you've got the benefit today of getting more clickthroughs to your site (less competition), as well as more power passed to your site....
If later the pages fill up, then you're benefiting by sharing the page with other related sites helping your linking neighborhood.
It's a win win.
Does everyone agree that DMOZ sucks because it's so hard to get into or have your listing ever edited?
Does everyone agree that Yahoo's $299 per year for a directory listing brings little value, and little traffic?
Does everyone agree that all other directories have little traffic, and little value to pass to the sites listed?
Then why should anyone bash someone for trying to build a directory from the ground up, and have value to boot?
You want bells and whistles from a directory? C'mon - that's not what a directory is? How exciting is DMOZ?
Do you mean your PC files - Word, MS Database etc?
I don't know about Yahoo, as I've only ever had a free listing from them when me site got spidered.
I may get a sponsered listing from them though. And as they are the biggest, you've got to be crazy not to use them at some point. Advertising has an awful lot to do with amount of budget you have.
The only thing that works (on the web) are large adverts on homepages of related sites. End of discussion.
Trouble is most webmasters don't have 2 pennies to rub together, (despite their claims) which is why forums and article sites were invented originally. A poor substitute for short-term promoting.
But, we are getting side tracked here. Let's face it, many advertisers (even big companies) get it wrong.
But they've got so much money - they just don't care!
And they don't measure their ads either - which is just fatal.
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Do other directories have little traffic? Well, yes & No really. If we're talking the top 20 directories (not SE's) then yes - they probably have a few million a year visiting them. The questions you really want to ask are:
1. Do they send lots of interested visitors to their clients
2. Is that traffic converting to sales for their clients?
If it is (and we will never know this) then they could be making a lot of money. Then again I doubt it.
I'm saying that for a number of reasons that are too lengthy to go into on any forum. And this info would be based on:
Promotional expertise of the company
Management
Strategy
Type of Ads run and the Copy
Website design and functionality
Unique product
Customer service levels
Retention strategy
and there are many more things to consider when offering a directory service.
It's so much more than just 'sticking one up' and getting it filled. There are too many that figure, "yeah, what a great idea. I'll have some of that" and it fails because 90% of webmasters lack the business experience, business quals for starters and the drive, time and commitment for it to work.
Oh, yeah and I forgot the Cash needed to do this. To start a web business, you would probably be looking at £15 - £25'000 - in order to make a go of it!
It's probably a lot more than that. The net business is dependant on web design and it's not cheap either.
It's also about constantly coming up with new ideas and ways of doing things - that most will give up within 3 to 4 years.
That can be £800 in hosting fees straight away. Basic web design will cost you £5'000 at least.
Then there is the legal side and the costs involved in that can cost £20'000 + (patents, trademark reg) etc.
Want me to go on?
That's just the tip of the iceberg. Tax and bookkeeping anyone?
If you can't do it yourself - you've got to hire an accountant, and even part-time it's going to cost you £10'000.
Then there's insurance, net security, admin costs, electricity, ISP charges.
What if your business is offline anyway. And you want to stick it on the web too. Blimey!
Stop me if I'm wrong..
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the Yahoo directory doesn't "spider". It's a human edited and reviewed process....no spidering is done for a directory listing.
>>The only thing that works (on the web) are large adverts on homepages of related sites. End of discussion. <<
ummmm...no...I'll respectfully disagree...other things work, and work better.
beyond that, you've got lots of interesting points on how you feel a business should be run...but that's not the issue at hand, and I don't feel you know eneough about this other business to assume to know how it is, or should be run.
>>beyond that, you've got lots of interesting points on how you feel a business should be run...but that's not the issue at hand, and I don't feel you know eneough about this other business to assume to know how it is, or should be run<<
No - my points aren't about how 'I feel' a business should be run - these are basic things that you must know about, in order to run ANY business.
On the contrary, the knowledge required in running a business applies to the web, and is exactly the issue at hand. But that's an argument for another day I feel.
Why do you assume I don't know enough about this other business? I may not know the exact technical aspects involved or administration that's involved, but there is more to it than just the technology in a web site.
So how do you know (as proof here) that I don't know the workings of a directory business?
The only way you could possibly know that would be to know what my business is. And you don't.
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>>ummmm...no...I'll respectfully disagree...other things work, and work better<<
Well, but then it's going to cost you more money. I mean what are people after. You can't have fantastic quality, and low cost.
The websites won't give it up - so forget that!
I do hope you're not going to tell me about posting articles to websites, or using some SEO company that wants £500 to muck about with keywords etc.
I used to work for a Marketing company - so I know exactly what I'm talking about Thanks.
Now, lets talk some sense here, without people trying to suss out one another.
You don't earn respect that way - you lose it.
There's a difference from "I had a good/bad experience with them" and "Here's how I think they should be running their business".
There's also a difference in posting and "Flaming".
We gotta read through your "noise" of how you think a business should be run when it doesn't address the original question...If someone asked "what you do think of submitting to Microsofts Directory at bcentral?"
Would one go on a rant about how microsoft runs a business?
He who casts stones, where's you're url in your profile?
My personal experience with Bluefind in both a business standpoint, and advertising standpoint are perfect.
I'm not the one promoting that fact, you are. :)
Is it a good idea? I wouldn't have thought of it, but the emptiness of the directory does provide more value for those people submitting sites. Less listings means more traffic for those who are listed.
>>Why are you telling people not to submit? I can't see the logic behind this.
If webmasters are concerned about a $40 submission fee, I really doubt they are running a profitable business, and I don't think that promoting a failing business is something we want to be a part of. That's why I say, if $40 is a big issue to you, don't submit.
:)
>>Why should buyers come to you? That's what you have to think about.
Actually, no, I don't need to think about that. If you bothered to do that math, you'd understand why. Suffice it to say, we're doing over a thousand dollars a day even on bad days. The product sells itself, so why should I be worried about "convincing" ideas or "unique" ideas? I can recommend against submitting till I'm blue in the face, and the submissions still pour in.
Why do people submit? Probably has something to do with link building, but all I know is that they do submit and they're happy with the results.
And that's good enough for me.
Why does Google do well? do they sell large home page ads?
nope.
that all faded when people understood the important of relevant trackable contextual ads.
strong directories frequently show up in search results. if their categories are somewhat empty they provide tons of traffic to the sites that are listed.
I would rather have 1,000 on topic links pointing at me than have 1 large home page ad, especially if I knew the links only costed a one time fee. plus selling large ugly ads is obtuse intrusive and annoying.
if Google teaches us nothing else we should all realize the value of giving people what they want and providing good value for your money. BlueFind does that right now.
Really. Okay.
Small ads for testing.
Larger ads for exposure.
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My clients would disagree with you on that one. Sorry.
>>Why does Google do well? do they sell large home page ads? nope.<<
But Google doesn't need to. That's probably why.
>>that all faded when people understood the important of relevant trackable contextual ads<<
That's fine by me.
Listen, good luck to you.
Regards
Chris
<edit>edited example link</edit>
The "link:" command in Google has been weird for a week or so now, with some PR0's showing and the higher PR's MIA at times. I'm sure there's a thread in the Google forum somewhere.
[edited by: skibum at 7:34 am (utc) on July 27, 2004]
[edit reason] please don't drop links [/edit]
Yes it does. Isn't that your site?
My concern is that submitted sites will gain backlinks and PR from the directory, my ad budget more than allows for $40, but even for $40 outlay, I like to see what I am getting.
I am impressed with you layout BTW, and Google has indexed 53,800 of your pages, just looking for some assurance that nothing goofy is being done to block outgoing PR....
[edited by: skibum at 7:36 am (utc) on July 27, 2004]
[edit reason] see previous post [/edit]
Ah, yeah, just a co-incidence.
You'd have to ask the thread starters. We have nothing to do with it; and I don't believe the statement is anywhere near accurate. I try to keep track of BlueFind threads, and most of the threads I'm aware of are over a month old.
So that's why they have PR of 8. It can't be that difficult to buy links from Internet.com then.
Hmmm Page Rank doesn't make you credible.
I prefer to make it in life on my own merits, without buying people's votes. Well you can buy traffic but you can't buy popularity.
Strategically speaking, this is one of the worst statements I have ever read coming from a sites owner. I think you need another 'company voice' with PR skills). PR as in public relations..
Your replies started as genuine and you responded with merit to the first few questions. Then you started adding little snickering attacks at people in your response posts. It doesn't matter who is in the wrong, your playing the PR role and in doing so you must address things differently. What do you think future site owners will view you and your website(s) as when they read this?
Anyone signed up with Bluefind? What are your experiences....worth it?
If one needs proof that BlueFind editors actually add sites on their own accord - I can certainly testify to that! So, we didn't have to 'sign up' as such...
As far as experience with it goes, we got few visits and we have a nice PR7 backlink. For us it was certainly worth it :)
Tempting as I may be to try and analyze why people find the fact that BlueFind is advertising on Internet.com so objectionable, I will resist! Advertising is integral part of marketing. BlueFind offers a service, which Yahoo, business.com and many others have been offering for years. Like them, BlueFind decided to charge for that service. In the same way that many people question the ROI on the Yahoo site submission, it is as legitimate to question the ROI for the service that BlueFind provides. Clearly, enough people seem to find that their ROI matches or exceeds their expectations.
My personal view on the 'worth' of the submission is that it depends on the difficulty you have in obtaining backlinks, and how pressed for time you are. Although you are unlikely to get many visitors (at least initialy) from BlueFind, being listed there is likely to give you a relatively high PR backlink and may substantialy increase the likelihood of search engines spidering your site. It's really your call.
MC
I don't think anyone here is totally against Bluefind, more like uncertainty, and they want to know what it can do for them. In other words how much ROI will I get for my $40.
But the owner talks as if he couldn't give a stuff about whether we (potential clients) are listed or not. Which from a sales point of view is actually quite dumb, and fatal - as in preventing business relationships.
Somethings got to give. And from what I've heard and been involved with, it's going to be a rough ride for him, if he continues.
He's obviously come on here, seeking exposure, and yet he's already got a bad rep. Not good PR.
Now, this directory could well be pretty good, but I don't share his dream of it becoming a top tier directory. The way he's going, it will destroy itself before it becomes established.
The press may build you up - but they will knock you down, given the opportunity.
Like a lot of companies, everyone wants to have the next Yahoo, and if the owner of Bluefind wants to challenge them, he needs to start listening to his customers, and deliver an outstanding service.
But I just don't think that's on his mind. We don't know him, and for all we know, he could be a millionaire, but that's no excuse to treat people in the manner he has.
Strategically speaking, this is one of the worst statements I have ever read coming from a sites owner. I think you need another 'company voice' with PR skills). PR as in public relations..
Obviously you don't know John Scott. He is known to speak his mind and not BS anybody. He may be a bit on the blunt side, but that's JS.
He's obviously come on here, seeking exposure, and yet he's already got a bad rep. Not good PR.
From what I have read in this thread and elsewhere, John is one of the more highly respected and trusted names in SEO.
There will always be critics and those suffering from PR Envy. Pay no attention to them.
Like Marcia said:
"There will always be a chicken little running around trying to tell everyone that the sky is falling. Then of course if the sky does look like it's falling those same ones will be telling people to sit idly by and do nothing, just to wait for the wind to change direction."
I'm not worried by his PR, as my Google rank is okay, and my site is inside of the top 80'000 websites in the world!
I can't speak for others.
Look, at the end of the day he wants to make a ton of cash from it, which is fine - so he should go for it.
I mean, money is a factor, but it's not the only reason for doing something like this. Customers need to be taken care of, or you'll lose them.
But, I think you need a passion to do something like this properly, and I don't think he's got that.
The intention to set up a business is there - but if his attitude towards enquiries, challenges or even objections and hate, aren't dealt with professionally - he could do his image some real harm.
Okay, we are getting off track here.
I would really be interested in why else he's doing this. Does he want to genuinely help people?
Or is he just in it for the buck?
If he isn't interested in promoting businesses to the best of his ability - then it's pointless owning a promotional tool - which is what a directory is supposed to be for.
Or have we all lost the basic idea of the advertising game.
Are you on crack? I mean, seriously, because I don't think anything less than crack could be responsible for such a rediculous statement.
You come out of nowhere attempting to campaign against BlueFind on several forums, and imply that my customers aren't taken care of, when every place I turn on the web BlueFind submitters are nothing but happy. In this very thread, Jimthoughts and Awall and others have stated they were happy with the product and service. On other forums people I don't even know are praising BlueFind, saying that their submissions were reviewed and listed within minutes, and many on PR7 pages to boot.
Every one of my customers is happy - except you, some anonymous dope fiend who wants to imply otherwise without even a hint of proof, and tons of proof to the contrary.
Actual customers say:
>>John has done an excellent job in developing BlueFind.<<
>> I'm glad I paid a $40 one time fee ......<<
>>Compare it to $300/year to be in Yahoo's directory and it's a great deal <<
>>Fantastic job by the Bluefind staff. Submitted and added in under 2 hours.<<
>>I've taken the gamble, for £22 it's worth the PR6 link in my category!<<
>>added to the directory within 1 hr of submitting.. impressed!<<
>>I've had quite a bit of traffic from Bluefind. In my top 10 for non-SE hits.<<
I could go on and on. I've never seen so many happy customers. Where do you have any indication of BlueFind customers not being taken care of? As far as I've seen, sites listed in BlueFind get more traffic from BlueFind than they do from their $299 Yahoo directory listings.
You want to run a hate campaign against BlueFind - fine. Let's see the proof. Because I know you haven't got any. Not a shred.
I don't do business like that. Today somebody got a refund of their submission fee when they said they only got two referrals last month. They didn't even ask for a refund. You think I'd get where I am if I ran business otherwise?
Money means squat to me. I don't know what to do with the money I got, so there's no reason for me to go scratching the bottom of the bucket for more.
>>>But, I think you need a passion to do something like this properly, and I don't think he's got that. <<
Again, just say no to drugs. While you're at it, say no to posting unsubstantiated bs in forums.
My editors get $36,000 yearly starting salary; we have advertising on over 200 of the highest traffic websites on the Internet. We're dropping tens of thousands of dollars in this, and we haven't even completed the directory categories. Once it's done you'll see some real advertising.
You think I have no passion for this? I'll just drop tens of thousands of dollars a month on a whim?
Check your facts before opening your mouth.
>>He's thrown down the Gauntlet by promoting his site on the biggest forum on the web, so shouldn't he be as nice and accommodating as possible? <<
Promoting my directory? Um, excuse me, but "defending my directory against unsubstatiated bs" is not the same as "promoting my directory".
If you got a link to something other than an overjoyed customer posting praise about BlueFind, post it. You want to snort crack and post slanderous bs, I'm not interested.
