Forum Moderators: open
I’ve read in numerous locations, primarily Resource Zone, that the ‘powers that be’ at DMOZ don't require editors to edit their categories. In fact, many times it’s been said bluntly by metas that they don’t care how long it’s been since a category has been edited and don’t place much/any importance on it.
I could understand listings not getting approved or editors not having enough time to make it through the large amount of submissions. However, when I go to high-level sections of DMOZ and see that they haven’t been edited in over two months, it really upsets me that they’ve been given so much power by Google and other search engines.
I have no doubt that I could be completely missing the point of editors. However, I know that even the volunteer moderators on my sites are required to check their message boards at least once a week or we find new moderators. I realize the editors aren’t paid but I don’t understand how that gives them immunity from being somewhat productive, especially when other potential editors are turned down.
For those who are part of DMOZ, please don’t take this post as a flame or slur of DMOZ. I admire the goals of DMOZ but with the power it’s been given by Google and other search engines comes a lot of responsibility. I just don’t understand why editing categories on a somewhat regular basis isn’t required of editors.
If an editor doesn't edit within 4 months their log-in expires.
Top-level sections of the directory don't usually get updated because they don't usually list sites. So there is nothing to update except categories. If there is a category update, then the higher up categories will be updated. The lower level categories with sites get edited more often than the higher level categories. Editors listed at top level categories do have the ability to edit any category under their level.
Editors are not required to edit their categories because they are volunteers.
That's part of what I don't get. I'm not sure where the idea that no-pay = no-responsibility comes from. I’ve seen the “we aren’t paid so we aren’t responsible” comments floated around by editors and metas at an alarming rate. If Google is going to give DMOZ so much power, there is most definitely responsibility.
Heck, on one of my sites, we require people to be subscribers to be moderators, yet we still require them to be productive if they wish to moderate.
The only responsibility that an editor has, is to stick to the guidelines.
That's part of what I don't get. I'm not sure where the idea that no-pay = no-responsibility comes from. I’ve seen the “we aren’t paid so we aren’t responsible” comments floated around by editors and metas at an alarming rate. If Google is going to give DMOZ so much power, there is most definitely responsibility.
That is what the 4 month time out is for. If the editor doesn't edit within 4 months their login expires. Most of the editors that don't edit on a regular basis probably have lost interest. The editors that do edit regularly may not always be noticed by the outside.
I understand we all want to make money, but i think too many people wish to exploit dmoz.
If your site is good enough it will get listed definitely, i know for a fact people are not sitting on their laurels there.
The flaw in this logic is that these are "their categories." If Jane is the listed editor of Science/Foo/Bar, then not only can the editors at Science/Foo and Science edit that cat, but also any editall or meta. No editor has a cat that they, and only they, can edit.
And, people do go on extended vacations, have family emergencies, etc. that sometimes editors will have very good reason for not editing for a couple months. That 4 month time out rule deals with editors who likely have lost all interest.
If the editors turned down my site for listing for some reason, I could accept it. If my site was in the queue behind 1,000 sites and it would be another year before somebody got a chance to see it, I could accept it. That type of stuff is obviously part of running a directory like DMOZ. However, when the category hasn’t even been edited in two months and I hear that’s perfectly fine with DMOZ, it’s just upsetting.
If Jane is the listed editor of Science/Foo/Bar, then not only can the editors at Science/Foo and Science edit that cat, but also any editall or meta. No editor has a cat that they, and only they, can edit.
I’m not sure what you are trying to get at but all that means is that there are even more editors who have overlooked the category for months at a time.
After reading comments from the dozens and dozens of editors and metas who have continually said “it’s not our responsibility to actualy edit anything because we’re volunteers” I realize I’m not going make a dent in the DMOZ subculture. That doesn’t mean that I don’t find that type of an attitude both detrimental and sad.
I think by last estimate there were 10,000 active editors, and 460,000+ categories. That would be 46 categories per editor, and I don't think many people have the time to edit that much.
I'm not coming over to cut your grass no matter how many times you complain that I should.
How would I "require" an editor to edit in a category? Generally we have held that if someone makes one edit a month, at least that is better than nothing (unless they are "tending" their own site to the exclusion of others). If we expire logins at one week instead of four months, we won't even get those four edits' worth.
Furthermore, editors who log in irregularly are encouraged to resign from subcategories of branches where they already have access (e.g. a Widgets/ editor need not also be listed in Widgets/Blue and Widgets/Blue/Spinning). While not explicitly against the rules (i.e. not an offense that would get you kicked out), such category squatting is discouraged because some people would not apply to edit a category an editor is already listed, despite the fact that there is no limit to the number of editors who can be listed in any particular category.
[edited by: choster at 7:23 pm (utc) on July 7, 2003]
If you want a Dmoz category edited, then volunteer.
I’m not stupid, I thought of that approach a long time ago. From what I have been told by numerous people becoming an editor to get your sites in is a big no-no.
Well, which category are you talking about? And where did you submit?
Since you asked…
(category – last update)
Recreation:Pets – May 11
Recreation:Pets:Dogs – May 6 (the category submitted to with a lot of unreviewed sites, even in a perfect world I realize it would be months before listing)
The following are all subcategories with editors although I didn’t submit to these categories…
Recreation:Pets:Dogs:Names – April 6
Recreation: Pets: Dogs: Breeds: Breeders and Kennels – April 13
Recreation: Pets: Dogs: Dog Parks – May 4
Recreation: Pets: Dogs: Free Stuff - April 20
Recreation: Pets: Dogs: Genetics – February 24
Health: Animal: Pets: Dogs – March 4
Recreation: Pets: News and Media – March 17
Recreation: Pets: Dogs: Origins – February 24
Recreation: Pets: Dogs: Training – April 10
BTW, no, this isn't an affiliate site.
The last-updated that is displaying on the public pages of dmoz.org at the moment does not, in fact, reflect the current state of the database. Those pages are static, built from a backup, while the backend is slowly upgraded to new servers.
They are, but "somewhat regular" isn't often enough for you.
Over 400K categories. Approx 9-10K editors with active accounts, most of whom don't have all that many categories to edit. Do the math.
It's entirely possible (and permissible) for certain categories to be ignored for darned near forever.
They are, but "somewhat regular" isn't often enough for you.
If once in two months is too much to expect, I'll just accept the fact that I'm expecting too much. I apologize for brining it up.
Dargo, thanks a mil for the response. I'll drop the subject.
becoming an editor to get your sites in is a big no-no.
I think the point wasn't to volunteer to list your own sites. Rather, it's that the ratio of individuals complaining about delays in listing sites vs. individuals willing to volunteer to help get the job done is way too high.
I don't claim to be a great editor. I have one little category, and I may not check in for weeks at a time. But I rarely wait longer than a month, and when I do check in I try to process all new submittals. Even at this minimally adequate level of performance, though, the situation in my cat is a lot better than in some of the cats I've submitted to. The point is, one doesn't have to devote one's life to DMOZ - an hour or two of work here and there will get the job done if enough people get involved.
Thats the point - it isn't working.
When I started out in a 120 site category, it was reasonable to expect that I made sure every title and description was guidelines compliant and that I kept the unreviewed queue down to a handful at all times. However, I now oversee a cat space of around 75,000 listed sites with a combined unreviewed queue of around 23,000 sites. Even if I edit every day, there are going to be hundreds of categories that I never visit.
Many editors log in relatively rarely, but they also tend to have a small cat space so it wouldn't make much difference overall if they logged in more frequently.
The problem with requiring editors to make an edit e.g. once a week is that many would just do any old edit quickly just to stay logged on. I think the senior ODP editors would prefer unreviewed queues to build up than unsuitable sites to be added to unsuitable categories with unsuitable titles and descriptions - that just leaves even more work for another editor to go in and make corrections.
Hope that makes things a bit clearer. :)
You shouldn't drop it, you should learn about the subject instead of assuming unfounded ideas. Editors can list their own sites. If that is all an editor does, they are only minimally useful as an editor but if their site merits a listing, they did something useful. More useful is an editor who lists the quality sites on a topic, including their own, if they have one. If sites meet the guidelines, editors list them. Not useful at all is someone who complains that other people aren't doing the work for them.
If the subject area you mentioned doesn't have enough editors it is because someone like you doesn't pitch in and do the work. That's all it is. It isn't "broken" or not working at all. The process is to a large degree self-selecting. Yes, meta editors have to approve applications, but if people don't do the work to help out in their own interest area then they have no one to blame but themselves... even if they would rather point the blame at everyone else.
I HAVE volunteered to be an editor in another category I know more about and could have given some descent input on but I was rejected twice. That was after I already had sites listed in the category. Accusing me of pointing the finger at DMOZ and not offering to help is just not true.
"Look, honey, I'm sorry about the fire in the kitchen and the dining room, I'm sure you've had a bad day. But is it really too much to expect dinner by 7:30?"
A word of advice: duck when you say things like that.
As someone may have mentioned once somewhere, the schedule is not normal right now. And yes, under the circumstances, expectations of normalcy are irrational, and expressing them merely lets the world know things about your mental state that a sane person would rather not have known.
Search here or on Resource Zone for what Meta editors say they look for in applications, find a very small category at the bottom of a tree, find three good sites, write good descriptions, apply. Lather rinse repeat. Either do the work or don't but it is up to you, not anybody else.
This wasn't supposed to be a "my site isn't listed yet" (aka moping) thread and I don't know why you think it is. If you read my posts I've already stated that I assumed my site wouldn't even be looked at for another four months (if I’m lucky) and realize that's part of the game and accept it. I have never complained that my sites aren't listed. My gripe was with the fact that very active categories are going months without update and DMOZ editors/metas openly claim on message boards that there’s nothing wrong at all with that.
Before you start with the "well why don't you edit them" again, I've already gotten the rejection "please try a smaller category first". You can tell me that I need to do the work all you want but when I am told that my help is not desired where more editors are needed, there’s not much else I can do. The idea that I haven’t tried is baseless.
BTW, the category with the large backlog that hasn't been updated since May 6th states this for editor applications...
This category does not accept new editor applications at this time. It may be too large for a new editor, may be designed to hold only @-links, or may be reserved for more experienced editors for other reasons. Please try applying in a different category at dmoz.org.
This, too, shall pass. Please be patient. :)
Your gripe is that some categories have not been updated in months and meta editors say that is okay. Again, if nobody, including you, cares to volunteer in this area there is nothing "wrong" in that. So you don't care. Fine. But it is again bizarre for you to be complaining about your own lack of initiative in seeing this category is taken care of. You see, it doesn't bother the other 99.9999999% of the people in the world if people of your interest area neglect your interest area. We only find it peculiar though that you think we should do work that you want to see done.
By the way, there are three things wrong with your last comments. Perhaps someone else might care to try and explain, again, to you what the current situation is.
But it is again bizarre for you to be complaining about your own lack of initiative in seeing this category is taken care of.
What exactly do you think I was doing when I got that message above?
The message on applications, the static public pages, the one-edit-in-four-months minumum... as I said before, questions would serve you better than than silly "Jurassic" thread titles.
I'm sorry if I sound too harsh here, but the point can't be made too strongly. if areas of the directory aren't edited it's largely because people in that interest area don't care enough to do the work to take care of it. Areas where people do care tend to have outstanding categories which helps users all over the world find quality resources (mostly via search engines who rely on ODP).
If you apply to Recreation Pets Dogs Breeds, no meta in their right mind would give a newbie a 16,000 site category. People like you, who very likely could be good editors, need to pay their dues in much much much much much smaller categories than that first.
Try the "becoming an editor" forum at resource-zone.com to get the most up to date information on when to apply, and what size categories to shoot for. Hopefully a couple weeks from now you'll be an editor and on your way to making your interest area a better category.
