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Inktomi Baffles Me.

Site slung in and out.



2:15 pm on Feb 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am fed up people.

The other day I was nowhere, then I got to number 1, now I am nowhere again.

Heres some information in my situation and the MSN serps - who knows someone may be experiencing similar problems.

A two word phrase
Unquoted search
My site is www.word1-word2.net

19525 returned results.

Results 1 to 56 have virtually all got the two words in the title and description.

Results 57 to 63 have only the first word in the title and description.

Results 64 to 393 have NO reference to the phrase in the title or description whatsoever. Not one single listing.

Result 394 is my site, which is the FIRST SITE to mention the phrase after position 64.
My site has it at the start of the title and 3 times in the description.

Results 395 to 461 have NO reference to the phrase in the title or description either, the same kind of junk as 64 - 393. Having checked out some of these, they all seem to have the phrase in a link somewhere on the page - thats all they have to include them in the serps at all.

462 onwards all have the words in the title and most in the description - a mish mash but with very few missing.

So we have a "block" of sites from 64 to 461 of junk - and I have gone from number 1 to 393 - towards the end of the junk.

What has gone wrong? Can anyone advise?

The site is good - no cloak, no tricks, number 2 for the same phrase in google for 6 months now. Also, its a paid inclusion via Ineedhits.

:( I am really upset.



2:29 pm on Feb 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member


You are not alone.

I posted a few days ago to see if anyone can shed any light on the MSN algo. They seem to use inktomi index, but use
their own very strange algo to rank the sites in the web pages results.

The way we got good traffic from MSN, was to find search terms with `web page` results and no `web directory`
returns. Then by submitting to looksmart we knew that we would be shown above all the strange Ink/MSN `web pages`.
I do not know if this will work in your case, as you do not mention if there are any `web directories` showing on your search terms.



2:55 pm on Feb 5, 2003 (gmt 0)


Yes MSN is powered by Ink for its "web pages" listings.

The term only shows occasional Looksmart directory listings above, because at 15c per click it is not viable to advertise it on LS. (is there a free way to get into looksmart anyone so that you dont pay for the clicks but do get the MSN directory listing?

So at 15c the odd experimenting webmaster tries it out but the traffic is just too heavy at around half a million searches per month and the conversions arent quite high enough.

Additionally, there are no OV sponsored sites either so its generally straight into the web pages section.

I'm right miffed off about it - there is a piece of the jigsaw missing for me with inktomi, if its a valid crawler reason I can accept it, but there appears to be no pattern and just random results.


3:12 pm on Feb 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member


Have you tried your search terms on pure inktomi rankings?

If MSN used pure Inktomi in their rankings I could understand it, but on our search terms the results on
MSN and Inktomi pure results are different again.

Agree that 0.15c a click may be too much for some,
however, we are paying until we get our pages int top 10
in `web pages` via Inktomi.

Also can anyone see any evidence that links count for anything on MSN or Inktomi?
Some of the sites above us are nowhere on google (where
we are top 3)so I can only assume links count for nothing
or very little in MSN.



3:20 pm on Feb 5, 2003 (gmt 0)


Yes - the results are the same on hotbot for this phrase.

Hotbot produces almost pure ink.

The point is that INKTOMI has slung this site from 1 to 394 having spent just a day at number 1. And its sat in a BLOCK of absolute dross - where those surrounding it dont mention the phrase in the title or the description, they only link out to another site with the phrase as the anchor text. I am the only site which mentions the phrase in the title and description in this block.

It is a VERY DISTINCT PATTERN - but I know not what it means!


General aggreement is that ink uses some form of link pop, although how often the scoring for this is updated in terms of some sort of google dance scenario is anyones guess.

I.E. you could have 10,000 inbounds and ink could know about them and factor them during a period. Then, during the next period you could gain another 10,000 inbounds, how long before Ink recognises and values these for your site? I cant say I'm afraid.


3:43 pm on Feb 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member


Has Inktomi ever deep crawled your site?

I subscribe via ineedhits since middle of Nov, but although
the slurp bot comes daily, it only ever takes the PFI

Some have said it takes 3 or 4 months for Inktomi to deep
crawl new sites, others say that if they use PFI the rest of their site never appears in the index.

It may be that you have to be around a while to get top
ranking in Inktomi.



4:41 pm on Feb 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yes - a number of pages are in, but newer ones are not, this indicates that it has deepcrawled at sometime in the past. It was originally submitted to Ink through PFI around August last year.

I have not got the logs for this though because the files are about 40MB per day and my host for that site doesnt like it so they delete them.


1:39 am on Feb 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

I'm having serious problems with Ink PFI from Position Tech similar to the original message, except with me it is often the case that for a specific search (like my website title) I appear literally LAST. Two days ago I jumped to first, but now again my PFI page disappears into the bowels of the results and gets outranked by trash and interior pages of my site that have gotten in via some freebot method that I can't figure out (since Slurp never appears in my logs for more than two pages).


12:01 pm on Feb 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

What can we do about this?

How can I even remotely suggest to my clients that a good MSN ranking can be acheived when in truth, it cannot.

Well it can but it doesnt stay that way.

My tweaking pages just doesnt help either. I think that the 48 hour refresh is only partial - I do not believe that a complete reposition based on changes is technically possible to do EVERY 48 hours.


1:42 pm on Feb 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member sem4u is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

PositionTech only guarantees to spider your URL every 48 hours. It is up to Ink (and then MSN) to update their databases.


1:33 am on Feb 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member steveb is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

The key to MSN is Zeal/Looksmart, not Ink.


1:21 am on Feb 19, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

I find myself in a similar situation...

I am top 10 for my major search term in Google, MSN (via Zeal/Looksmart), alltheweb, etc.

...but I stink in Ink! Using the Pure Search and Hotbot I am at #75 for the same term! Ouch.

Normally I wouldn't care, because I'm already getting good visibility in MSN through Zeal/Looksmart, but now I'm worrying about how Yahoo might use Ink in the near future.

Here are some quick facts:

- PR6 (hopefully PR7 after the next dance)

- PFI via positiontech since last June for 3 pages, including the homepage.

- Ink is crawling and including my other non-PFI pages.

Any clues or suggestions? Ink doesn't appear to like something I'm doing or not doing, but I have no idea what it might be.


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