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I thought most webmasters who weren't under a corporate yoke were polymaths, combining visual design genius with literary talent, a good comprehension of semantic markup principles and elegant coding.
I thought there was a passion in this industry which far superceded any financial compensation.
Somehow I maintained that illusion the first year after I discovered WW... perhaps I was reading posts in a way they weren't intended, I don't know.
But ever since I went to PubCon and encountered small-minded, money-oriented, numbers-game marketers I've had to rethink who else is out there and I'm becoming seriously depressed about it.
I was initially attracted to webmaster world precisely because of its name and because it wasn't called webmarketers world, or SEOWorld or webprogrammers world.
But as I remain on these fora I find myself trying to seek out those who are genuine webmasters in the sense that they are primarily writers and designers and secondarily coders and yet see myself surrounded at all turns by numbers-game marketers and million-website-networkers.
Is there still a place on the web just for webmasters who couldn't give a stuff about capitalist profit, and who actually want to write a decent website - like a decent novel, or a decent film - for the sake of writing a decent website?
[edited by: oilman at 11:16 pm (utc) on July 7, 2004]
Personally I "webmaster" as you postulate you expected to see it done. But I find that I'm a MAJOR minority.... it's sometimes disturbing, often aggravating. I don't do "depressed" but I see how others might have that reaction too!
I would suspect that those who go to the PubCons are a small minority of WebmasterWorld members, and as PubCon is by definition a marketing, professional conference, you are more likely to meet the business-minded member there. I've never been to a PubCon, and I'll probably never go - because I'm broke and happy about it, and I have a family life and can't fly off to exotic locations on a whim, and that the subject matter would probably always pass me by. Yes, there are people who are here to help make money, because "webmastering" is a business not only a hobby. Do I blame them? No, it's just the way the medium is. Are there small-minded profit seekers on WebmasterWorld? Undoubtedly, but so there are everywhere.
You ask whether there is a place for those of us who aren't just in it for the money. I feel the answer is yes, and it's just here. Some forums are more market-oriented, and others are more technology-oriented. In my case, I keep the "Marketing World" section collapsed when I view the forum index, and I rarely venture into the "Search Engine World" section either. "The Webmaster World" is where I post most, and it is where you're more likely to find the less money-oriented members. It doesn't mean the other sections don't have their worth, just that they're not for me.
I'm an information junkie, and I've never sold anything online, and I make my meagre living building accessible, informational websites for non-profits. I love what I do, and I know I'm not the only one here who is the same.
I'd also expect the demographics of PubCon to be different from those of WebmasterWorld in general. Many of the members here can't spare the time or the money to go, I'm sure.
There are plenty of webmasters here who do not bow to money as their master, Ronin. (Cool nick in this context, BTW). And for the most part, I'm one of them. But while many of my sites are not profit-driven, some of the ones I've worked on are. But there are still lots of people here who pour their heart and soul into their sites, regardless of what they get out of it -- be that money, learning, the satisfaction of helping others, or whatever. There's even some weird "crossover" motivation sometimes; There's nothing quite like making a fair fee fixing up a mom-and-pop service industry guy's site, and having him say later that you saved his business by bringing him more customers to compensate for a severe local economic slump that was slowly starving his business. Unabashed gratitude is priceless.
Anyway, there's a real mix here, but some are more vocal about their sites/businesses than others.
Jim
As a "professional webmaster" I'm an utter failure. It's a part time gig that brings in extra coin every now and then. I build a few small websites a year for small businesses, because I can sympathise with them. I Charge well, but reasonably, and really try to give as much "bang for the buck" as is within my ability.
Then again, I could say the same thing about everything else I do. I'm the ultimate "itinerant", with a whack of skills I pull out to make enough money to get by, and never have to do the same thing for any great length of time. It keeps me from getting bored, and it keeps me happy.
Web work, like everything else I do for money, I do because I enjoy it. I enjoy the detail of it, because you can really lose yourself in the minutia. I enjoy the scope of it, because you have to be able to see the forest at the same time you're standing in the middle of it, confronted by one massive tree.
As for everyone else here, eh, I don't worry so much about it. The conversation is mostly friendly and helpful, and earnest. It also tends to be educated, and on a higher level than most other forums. There are a few people around here I'd class as "arrogant twerps", but I let it slide, because by and large, they actually do know what they're talking about, if you get past the personality.
The specific reason I started coming here, all of maybe half a year ago, was because I was looking specifically for information about SEO. I knew I wasn't getting it right, and also knew I could do better. I've come away with a much deeper understanding of how search engines operate, and how to build a site accordingly.
I've also found an interesting, diverse community of people, ranging from the itinerant like myself, the the professional full timer. And everyone has something to offer. At a guess, I'd say that's what really makes this board as a whole successfull. People united by a common interst, separated by a wide range of skill.
I thought most webmasters who weren't under a corporate yoke were polymaths, combining visual design genius with literary talent, a good comprehension of semantic markup principles and elegant coding.I thought there was a passion in this industry which far superceded any financial compensation.
I love playing with computers. I have loved playing with computers for over twenty years. I play for hours on "proof of concept" ideas many of which are raised/suggested here. I think of it as fun. Compared to "real" programming or database design (I do both) the gratification of web design is an instantaneous high. iamlost and I am a webaholic.
Never forget that the web has encompassed the world and in so doing has also enveloped the illegal and the unethical; the foolish and the ignorant; freeware, shareware, and paidware; individuals and organisations, governmental and non. It started as a means for academic information sharing and has, is, and will continue to transform our world.
Do "marketeers" (quick buck web hustlers) exist in the undergrowth? Yes. Are some of their practices a royal pain? Yes. Illegal, immoral, and fattening? Quite likely. Is there a moral difference between these contemporary snake oil types and software companies that deny responsibility for sloppy code, security failures, system crashes, or data loss? No.
I have learned many techniques from such people. I use the ones that meet my ethical standards, I use my knowledge of the rest to better advise my clients.
I know stockbrokers and lawyers, thieves and (at least two) murderers, drug addicts and drug dealers, police and politicians, housewives and prostitutes, artists and artisans ... people of all races, creeds, nationalities, and social status ... I have learned from each and every one of them. There is no such thing as useless knowledge. What you do with the knowledge is another matter.
Refusing to listen to the marketeers is to deny reality. They and their methods exist. Know them. Understand them. There is no requirement to emulate them. There is a professional necessity to know the hazards of your workplace.
As to capitalist profit - it is the profit of my work that puts a roof over my head, clothes on my back, food in my stomach, and provides some toys to play with. I do, however, only write "decent" standards compliant content rich websites. For two reasons: first because I believe it is the "right" thing to do and second because it is the "right" long term business proposition for my clients.
I do what I do for a living. Rather a good living. I am able to live where I want and do (mostly) what I want to do. This industry made it possible.
WebmasterWorld provides two very distinct benefits: one, that of learning from some of the best in almost every aspect of the web; two, that of each post being critiqued by others at least as knowledgeable. The good stand out, the bad are pointed out, and the ugly - well it's nice of everyone to put up with us.
Your points are valid. My point is that we are human.
I still would like to have less of the dreck muddling up what I'm looking for.
But I do get your point.
Thanks for raising some excellent points and restoring my confidence in the board as an entity with far more diverse demographic than I was temporarily giving it credit for.
But I'm still interested in what the marketers, SEOers, etc., have to say, so that I can make those sites as visible as they can be. And that's how I look at their posts: not how to MAKE MONEY FAST, but how to make sites more easily found.
As you know, PubCon is short for Publishers' Conference. Not Webmarketers' Conference. I'm optimistic that there may well be more publishers and less algorithm chasers next time.
The web was around before the marketers without imagination came along, I'm sure it will survive when those sort of marketers move on to a new medium.
eBay was inspired, Google was inspired and so were many other web-native commercial enterprises. The weak and derivative copycats mostly died a timely death in 2000 which was their reward for thinking things through so ill and knowing little about the medium.
As the online economy begins to surge once more, we, inevitably, see a new rise in ultsearch style marketing without imagination.
A television network that was just shopping channels and adverts would be a dull network indeed. Likewise a newspaper publishing house which was just produced journals containing advertorials and commercial listings.
Of course some people are going to come along and try to turn the web into a virtual shopping mall. Fortunately, I've regained some assurance in the course of this discussion that there are enough people out there who think differently, so it won't ever be reduced to just that.
..A television network that was just shopping channels and adverts would be a dull network indeed. ....
PubCon is short for Publishers' Conference.
Actually, PubCon really is for a gathering of WebmasterWorld supporters at a PUB (aka Bar). The anme was changed when it went all official.
The web was around before the marketers without imagination came along, I'm sure it will survive when those sort of marketers move on to a new medium.
More like marketers without imagination has been around much, much longer. Besides, don't know about you, but at this point in the game, those "unimaginative marketers" had to be darn clever to get this far.
The internet is not art. It's programs linked together with hardware.
I use to get into a similar argument with my artsy/writer friends of the past. They would argue that art should be done for art's sake, no money involved to "corrupt" it. My argument was that why not make the commercial stuff and then when you have made your fortune off that, make the stuff you love with even a larger audience to enjoy your true art. Even the greedy of the past returned to art. Look at Andrew Carnegie or even Bill Gates today.
We don't live in a world that sponsors artists anymore, and we have never lived in one that sponsors webmasters. There will always be art dealers, there will always be web marketers. Frankly, I am not certain how much artists would be able to sell their work without art dealers and I don't know how many people would connect to the internet without web marketers.
We don't live in a world that sponsors artists anymore, and we have never lived in one that sponsors webmasters. There will always be art dealers, there will always be web marketers. Frankly, I am not certain how much artists would be able to sell their work without art dealers and I don't know how many people would connect to the internet without web marketers.
Well, for centuries there was quite a good system with the arts; all you needed to do was find a wealthy patron. I see no reason why this might not work on the web...
Therefore, in the interests of the continuing diversity and evolution of the world wide web, and so that it may become possible for me to live in the style to which I have always wanted to become accustomed, beginning today I will be accepting applications from wealthy individuals and families (there will be a means test) to fill the position of 'patron'. No experience required, preference given to applicants surnamed 'Medici'.
No time wasters please!
-B
I will be accepting applications from wealthy individuals and families (there will be a means test) to fill the position of 'patron'........
Loanuniverse Medici here... Please compose an Ode celebrating my greatness and submit it to my court. Your request to be the official <insert artsy profession here> will be considered.
Please practice your curtsy.
As a "professional webmaster" I'm an utter failure. It's a part time gig that brings in extra coin every now and then. I build a few small websites a year for small businesses, because I can sympathise with them. I Charge well, but reasonably, and really try to give as much "bang for the buck" as is within my ability.
heeheehee.... Yes well. Me too.
The jack-of-all-trades hobbyist webmasters are here too... But we are as a rule, quieter. We're not going to be screaming and hollering about the latest ranking change, because we really don't care. We're not going to be scrambling to find new, sneaky ways of boosting our PR, because it doesn't particularly matter. So the people busy scrambling and panicking are going to make the most noise on a forum like this.
But we're here. ;)
we have never lived in one that sponsors webmasters.
Err... given the revenue model of this site, I have to disagree >;->
The web is an unprecedented outlet for imagination, expression and creativity. It's probably the first medium in the world from which it is easy to collect substantial revenue - whether writing short stories, mixing tracks, selling photography etc. - without having to pay middlemen.
The idea of doing something basic and repetitive (like a thousand sites selling ringtones or ten thousand selling paid clicks) because it makes more money than something imaginative and ambitious seems... well, a little modest.
But we're here.
Not a good system. Tell that to Beethoven's contemporary, Schubert. Young Franz had to hustle songs for a living. Known in his day as a great songsmith, nobody had an idea that he was writing lovely pieces for the piano and string, in addition to symphonies.
And let's not bring up the broke and miserable like William Blake.
I'll say this, I have a tremedous amount of respect for the things that Hannamyluv does to track sales and create ads that convert: That effort should win an art prize.
Additionally, I can't help but feel awe when I come across a beautifully cloaked website that is persistently lodged in the top three: It is the work of a craftsperson, someone who knows their stuff, and has put much thought and originality into it. Some of these "artists" even put easter eggs in their hallway pages as a joke to curious people like me (ha! ha!).
You have to understand what Warhol meant when he stated his desire to become a machine.
