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Peeping in the door just to see.

         

isitreal

11:11 pm on Oct 29, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



[webmasterworld.com...]

Note that despite predictions to the contrary, I really did stay away, though as one poster in that thread noted, one can always use a different nic for different purposes, which I did for a bit after that one, but then haven't logged in again to webmasterworld for over a decade I think, at lest, maybe more.

And I did meander along the GNU/Linux path, and still do, which is where almost all my online efforts have been directed. That's an interesting game, albeit difficult and time consuming, but easier to make a global impact of sorts should one so chose.

I want first and foremost to congratulate the site owner, whose name I forgot, sorry, for not falling into any of the modern horrible fads for layout and presentation, and, even better, for retaining old accounts and not pruning them, which is more than I can say for all the old emails I used to use with various large and small email providers, all dead now. This era of actually making usable non bs content and layout seems largely dead in the water in the rest of the internet, though we've kept our commercial stuff as clean and simple as possible while still being user friendly, but my eyes sparkled when I hit WebmasterWorld again today for the first time in a long time, not broken, not stupid, no idiotic presentation fads, astounding really. But probably translates to kids going elsewhere I'd fear, and of course the pervasive stackexchange/overflow stuff, which I assume has eaten a huge chunk of the WebmasterWorld core userbase.

Maybe it started coming back to me when I refactored one of my oldest flat file home grown CMS sites recently, an idea I got at least in part from how WebmasterWorld was constructed.

But talking to a client, made me wonder if it wasn't time to check into WebmasterWorld again, mainly to follow the godawful mess that modern machine learning is demonstrating, particularly re google, and anyone else who is trying to implement an absurdly flawed model of cognition by tossing billions of dollars of hardware/devs to generate enough computer to enable... pattern matching...

Our interests were stirred a bit a few months back when we realized that google serps were turning into total gibberish, something my non techie firends concurred with, though in our case, it resulted in google returning us to our old pre monetizing serp position of #1 by accident, where we now sit peacefully, though I'm sure google will realize their error at some point and get rid of such accurate results that reflect what users actually want and are looking for.

I'm curious if any of the 2005 era gang are still around, and note, posting in foo to maintain my 1300 final post average, and don't really have anything I want to learn re seo or tech in this area so probably won't be posting much, unless there's something interesting, but maybe I'll use an alternate account for that, I don't know.

I'l also curious if there has been any good critical discussion here of AI (sic, machine learning really, and even the learning part deserves its own (sic) since the only honest part of that statement appears to be the code and data runs on machines), not as in, actually believing the AI BS hype, but critically appraising it when it comes to how the big firms are applying it, like MS OpenAI GPT, Google's silly failures with waymo, search, auto identifying spam and obvious seo abuse, etc.

You may remember, like those big google update threads, where it was picked apart, back in matt cutts era?

I've noted to a guy I work for that I've been thinking of checking back into WebmasterWorld just to see where it's at, so that's what I'm doing. Plus to see if anyone is still around from the old days. I know that's pushing it after so many years.

isitreal

1:18 am on Oct 30, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



[internetmarketingninjas.com...] ah, 11 years ago sold, but seems to be still in fine working order. Did this sale remain the last step, or has further stuff happened? I notice some features are clearly not working, like the hot threads this week box to my right, since those are well over 1 year old, so some rust clearly is in place here. Anyway, no big deal though it does appear a few of the originals are still around, but probably not that many.

tangor

2:26 am on Oct 30, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



though it does appear a few of the originals are still around, but probably not that many.


Many have passed, many have been lured away by internet glitter, others have just quit the game. Quite a few just stopped for a bit and then came back. :)

Then again, many are still here, just not posting as much.

The web we knew 10-20 years ago is gone. The web of now is moving corporate and garden walled, seeking that subscription stage where the user not only pays to play on the internet but has to pay for every site they visit.

We live in interesting times.

not2easy

3:47 am on Oct 30, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I notice some features are clearly not working, like the hot threads this week box to my right, since those are well over 1 year old, so some rust clearly is in place here.
If you click the header banner on those sidebar features like Featured Threads for example, they show the proper content.

I suspect host changes are involved since it started about the same time and incrediBill [webmasterworld.com] set up some of those features so when he passed, the magic went with him.

Welcome back isitreal. Good to see long-missing people stop by.

graeme_p

9:11 am on Oct 30, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I though I had been here a long time, but you left before I joined!

The site has been bought back by the original owner.

The web is not what it was, and neither is this site. Google is not either, but it seems it can still make money from an en#*$!ified version of what it used to do. Just like everyone else really. I have taken to using paid search (Kagi).

It is not just sites that were good back then that look good now. I just went to the website of a local theatre company and it looked horrible - like something from Geocities in the 90s. It was still a lot more useful than most sites are now. The information I wanted was all there, and navigation was simple.

As for machine learning, it is a useful tool that is being hugely overrated and overestimated.

isitreal

8:06 pm on Oct 30, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



graeme_p, your name rings a bell as well. I was actually starting to get struck by what garbage google's core ad vending product, search, was becoming, first I thought it was only my specific technical types of searches, but when I commented on this to a few non tech friends who are observant, they all confirmed the same thing, this was a few months back now, though I'd been noticing the garbage quality for a while, which meant in most cases returning gibberish for a tight highly specific key word search. And not modifying the results on repeated rephrasings of the search. It was only recently that I became aware that google is injecting most popular similar searches and replacing my search that I realized what was happening. Another example of google's consistent failure to achieve anything remotely practical with their machine learning systems, though their translate is improved, but it's still popularity based pattern matching with no recognition, no understanding, and zero ability to deduce meaning from context of the whole. And certainly exactly zero intelligence.

But it's also odd, to me it seems like the main thing that has really changed with the web is the quality of the access portal, google mainly, which has dropped. Google should check their history and look up what happened to Ask and Alta Vista before creating such a huge opportunity for some future MIT or Stanford etc graduate students, in their garage... google exists because it offered better search, and that was their "core competence", so if their internal culture has degraded to the point where nobody can point to the fact their search has declined, not improved, google's clock is ticking down rapidly.

I view machine learning through 2 lenses, first, to solve highly specific pattern matching problems, that do not require 'understanding' to achieve good results. That part seems to be pretty solid, and will expand. The second is the failed attempt to map this simplistic model, which literally cannot even match the innate, out of egg capabilities of a basic cockroach, to essentially full working cognition, that is, language or other internal structure based concept formation being used as grounds to generate conclusions and actions.

After thinking a bit too much about this, it struck me that the future better model for type 2 will require consistently LESS data to train, will learn from smaller and smaller samples, and will almost certainly be hardware based, the way all life forms are DNA based at core, they will not be empty blank slate because nature has already determined that's a dumb way to achieve functional intelligence.

But artificial general intelligence following the current models, with trillions of training points required to achieve much worse results than a human driver, say, I think they will learn stuff, and maybe offer the future good examples of what not to do, and also to have tools and hardware that can be repurposed.

The spread of big corporate web is of course pernicious, but in a a sense, going way back, the entire web 1.0, with 'portals' being the big target if you recall, like AOL, yahoo, etc, was also about big companies shooting for winner takes all, but when I look at how properties like facebook and twitter decline rapidly, I'm reminded how quick things can change, fall out of fashion.

The big risk is probably that these current big winners re capital can continuously buy up the small firms that would have replaced them, that's a risk, but that's more a government policy thing, anti monopoly type situation than anything else.

But for me, I follow threads, land on specialist websites, that as far as I know are more or less privately run or held, and that really hasn't changed much for me since WebmasterWorld days in 2005ish.

[edited by: isitreal at 8:19 pm (utc) on Oct 30, 2023]

isitreal

8:17 pm on Oct 30, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Just as an aside, there's always been a tendency in the web to try to cash out without doing the work, for example, in the old days, magazines and newspapers had advertising departments, and they printed these ads in their papers. this may seem something trite to point out, but the fact is, when sites for example complain about ad blockers, they always act as if you have to use a third party firm injecting their ads into your site, and ignore the fact that if they ran their own ad departments, like a real publisher, ad blockers have nothing to block since it's locally served content, from that domain.

For some reason, the web has made people incredibly lazy, and stuff that was the absolute norm in the past is now considered to be almost unthinkable, like running your own ads. This makes such sites highly susceptible to extortion and control by the big ad vendors. Or, heaven forbid, having something on your site people will pay for.

To me, I think I'm sort of doing an overview here, looking out at the landscape, and I don't really see it as that different from what it was, but that's because my main interests tend towards the non mainstream. Stuff like amazon destroying local economies by offering prices on everything that nobody can honestly compete with, again, that's a legal and political issue more than a technical issue, but the overall winner takes all tendency of the web has been pretty consistent, microsoft has been largely unable to crack google's dominance, but google is now working on cracking it for the world, which may be part of the overall life cycle of IT firms.

tangor

10:11 pm on Nov 1, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



if they ran their own ad departments, like a real publisher, ad blockers have nothing to block since it's locally served content, from that domain.


I ran that paradigm for 23 years. Built a regional company with over 800 advertisers annually serviced by two full time employees whose sole reason was to bring in the advertisers AND to create/facilitate the ad copy/illustrations.

Sold it a few years back to my "ad department" when I retired. It is STILL going strong as it was easier to find a "webmaster" to do the coding than to find folks with fire in the belly to do the really hard work: selling the ad space at many multiples of the once dollars (and now pennies) of adsense/adwords.

As for the new content for the site(s) the new management went with guest writers or recurring contributors.

Won't work for everyone, but for those with stout heart and willingness to actually WORK, one can make a very good living.

isitreal

12:18 am on Nov 2, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Very nice, too bad this attitude wasn't more prevalent across the internet.

lucy24

4:47 pm on Nov 2, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



if they ran their own ad departments, like a real publisher, ad blockers have nothing to block since it's locally served content, from that domain
Be careful, though.

I make ebooks, and sometimes I include the publisher’s advertising if, say, Dent & Dutton in 1909 had an especially interesting selection of upcoming titles. I've learned from sad experience that I have to think twice about what I call these sectors, because if I go with something straightforward like <div class = "ads"> my own browser's ad blocker will happily eat the entire thing. There was a time when Safari hid three common smileys because their shorthand names were :mad: :glad: and :sad:. (This is really true. I'm sure they have fine-tuned it by now.)

graeme_p

4:36 pm on Nov 3, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



But it's also odd, to me it seems like the main thing that has really changed with the web is the quality of the access portal, google mainly, which has dropped.


I have started using Kagi, which is paid, ad free, and feels like an improved version of Google when it was good. One feature I find appealing is an option to favour smaller web sites rather than the giant ones that dominate Google.

isitreal

1:17 am on Nov 4, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Is Kagi doing their own spidering and search processing? In the past, alternate search engines always used one of the big ones as their backend.

graeme_p

1:06 pm on Nov 4, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Kagi uses Bing spidering, I believe, but their own processing. Their results are significantly different from Bing's and can be customised:

[kagi.com...]

[bing.com...]


it is still very small.