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Let's talk about Crypto

         

csdude55

6:19 am on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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So what do you all think about crypto in general, and about crypto mining?

Two days ago I set up a Coinbase account, and for kicks sent $100 to it. I invested in Bitcoin, Dogecoin, and Shiba Inu. And now my account is worth $150! :-O I can't complain about a 50% gain!

My stock portfolio is mostly in tech stock, and it's done pretty well. I understand it; I pay attention to tech news and I read financial reports, so I can make educated decisions on when / what to buy / sell. But crypto seems like a total guessing game! Who knows which way the wind will blow in an hour to make it go up or down?

But then I read about mining:

[coinbase.com...]

Now THAT's interesting... you have a server that more or less race to be the first server to guess a hash number, and if you guess it then you get 6.25 free Bitcoins. I understand that I can't do that with my PC, but one could lease a dedicated server... right? And at a current value of $43k, if your server gets one hash per year then you'd be rolling in the cash!

Thoughts?

engine

8:36 am on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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So what do you all think about crypto in general, and about crypto mining?


It's similar to the stock market, in the sense that you could gain as well as lose.

If you are a risk-taker you're going to be comfortable with the risks.

brotherhood of LAN

9:09 am on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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Purists would flag up calling it crypto rather than crytocurrency, seems the cryptography crowd feel a bit hijacked.

There are online calculators that'll work out your net return, mainly based on the cost of the electricity you'll need.

Me personally, I'm sceptical of it all due to the energy requirement, and the lack of legal protection in the event your coins get stolen. I did mine a little bit of monero in the past, using some dedicated servers that were mostly idle and running it with a 'nice' value.

It feels like our economy is/needs to move away from strictly monetary values and place more value on carbon and energy itself. Guess if carbon credits were to be applied to mining profits it'd seem less viable.

robzilla

9:09 am on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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You're many years too late for this, I'm afraid. You'll never turn a profit leasing a dedicated server for the purpose of bitcoin mining.

What you'd need is very high-end or purpose-built mining hardware (expensive GPU or ASIC) and very low electricity costs.

I'd make about $2/month mining BTC with my Ryzen 5 5600X. Even running that CPU idle 24 hours/day would cost me $22/month, so I'd lose $20.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but everyone would be doing it if it was still profitable :-)

I had some success investing in BTC and altcoins about 4 years ago, it bought me a nice piano. Even then mining wasn't really worth the effort.

Dimitri

2:54 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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If easy and money does not ring a bell to you, then go ahead...

Do not forget that, depending of the country where you live, you have to declare and pay taxes on your cryptocurrencies' profits, like for any investment.

NickMNS

3:02 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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You're many years too late for this, I'm afraid

Not true. Mining can still profitable. But...

There are two types of mining ASIC mining which is used for Bitcoin and similar coins, this requires a dedicated mining rig. Bitmain S19pro costs somewhere around $10k to $15k and can return $10 to 20$ per day depending on you electricity costs the networks difficulty and the price of Bitcoin. A typical rig can be expected to last about 3 or 4 years before it becomes obsolete or breaks. So at the current prices, your looking at about 2.5 years to pay off the rig, and about an additional year to make profits, which would work out to about $5000. That works out to about 11% or 12% annually compounded return. You must also consider that these rigs are big, heavy, noisy, generate a lot of heat and require a 220v connection. It is generally not advised to operate them in your home. There are services that all ow you co-locate but this adds to the cost and thus erodes returns.

The other type of mining is GPU mining which is used for mining Ethereum and other derivative coins. The economics for GPU's is similar to ASIC mining described above but the GPU tend to cost less so you with a smaller investment.

Now the but...
Financial risk:
One needs to look at this as a financial investment, 10k with 12% return is pretty good, even at 6 or 7% inflation that leaves you with 5 or 6% real return. But there are risks, first the price of the rig is determined by the price of the crypto-currency specially for ASIC rigs. If you order one today, you likely wont get it for a few month. So what you are essentially buying is a very expensive call option on the future price of crypto. Given the price volatility, if your lucky when you receive delivery your machine could already be worth double the price you bought it, or unlucky it could be worth half. So essentially you are speculating directly in the price of the coin.

Once you start operating you are forced to continue because nearly all your cost is sunk, paid upfront, the only marginal cost is electricity. So provided that the return stays above your cost of electricity any income you make is money in your pocket, and the only mean of recovering as much of your initial investment as possible. Your ASIC will be worthless as nobody will want to purchase an obsolete machine.

Obsolescence risk:
As new ASICs reach the market and become faster at solving hashes, it drives up the mining difficulty, so the return on the hashing rate drops. This decline is not linear. New liquid cooled ASIC's are reaching the market now, so we can start expect a sudden increase difficulty in the coming month as more of those machine come online. There is no upside risk with obsolescence.

Breakage:
You are buying a machine, it can break at any time. Any stoppage impacts you returns. If you need to wait a week for a replacement part, then that becomes one week less of income. Not to mention the cost of the replacement parts. And critical failure is also possible, if the machine dies, your out 10k minus what ever returns you managed to earn.

Ethereum's move to proof of stake and the ultimate obsolescence:
In 2022 (yes this year) Ethereum is planning to move from mining to staking, if that day ever comes the mining rigs will immediately become worthless. They say "But they are GPU's I can always sell them to gamers!", um no. This will create a glut in the market dropping the price of new GPU's and flood the secondary market with GPU's from miners that nobody will want because they will have been driven to near death. So no your GPU's will be just as worthless as an obsolete ASIC.

With a 3 year payback it seems nearly impossible that mining Ethereum can be profitable, but prices don't reflect that. And you still hear of companies investing in new Eth mining rigs. So either people are irrational, or ETH2 (PoS) is never coming. You decide which you want to believe,

The bottom line is that mining crypto-currency is not without risk, and when you account for the risk, the returns are not as good as some may make them out to be. My feeling is, if you want to speculate in the price of Bitcoin, just buy Bitcoin, or Ethereum.

NickMNS

4:40 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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Here is another potential risk factor:
Political risk factors, such as a mining ban:
[coindesk.com...]

Note that China has already banned mining, less for environmental reasons and more to do with the issuance of the ECNY, the government's own digital currency (ie: CBDC).

Taxes (as Dimitri points out) are another risk in this category, including indirect tax such as a carbon tax.

lucy24

4:46 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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I prefer the interpretation that, when all is said and sifted, it’s just another speculative investment. Some things go up for quite a while; some things peak and then crash. (See “revisited” episodes of Antiques Road Show for examples.)

Sgt_Kickaxe

6:01 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)



The idea of a currency not controlled by government appeals to many but the crypto craze that sent prices into the stratosphere is firmly in the past. Forces continue to align against it and one morning you'll find yourself with a pocket full of crypto worth the same as the air in the other pocket.

The rich looking for alternative investments prefer to invest in semi-liquid tangible things they can get a loan against. Vintage car collections, art collections, etc. By borrowing to get these the loan debt offsets the increase in personal value come tax time.

NickMNS

7:15 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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The rich looking for alternative investments prefer to invest in semi-liquid tangible things they can get a loan against.

There is an entire ecosystem of apps (known as Defi) designed specifically to lend, borrow and trade your crypto holdings.

Vintage car collections, art collections, etc.

NFT's anyone!

csdude55

8:06 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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Realistically, cryptocurrency (sorry, Purists!) and NFTs feel a LOT like a good way for cartels to launder money... but that's a whole 'nother topic, I guess ;-P

As a rule, I'm not afraid to invest in something if it can make money. Grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter how much it actually costs as long as it can make a profit! I was having a similar conversation with a business friend recently that was wanting to buy a franchise... the investment is a cool $1 million USD, and after it's all said and done that'll be about $5k /month. But he'll also need about 20 part time employees, so payroll is another $30k /month. And incidentals, of course, for about $10k /month.

That payment scared the crap out of him, but I had to point out that the expected monthly gross was well over $50k. So overhead of $45k is irrelevant, he still puts $5k in his pocket without actually doing anything for it.

But with that said! If @NickMNS's assessment is correct, a 12% annual return before inflation really isn't enough to justify the overhead. The average annual return on stocks is 10-11% before inflation, so I could invest the same amount in a NASDAQ or S&P ETF and make about the same money with a lower investment and less risk.

Oh well :-(

If only I could go back in time and buy a butt load of Bitcoin when it was $1! LOL

Sorry to burst your bubble, but everyone would be doing it if it was still profitable :-)

@robzilla, I was hoping you guys would say that everyone with tech knowledge IS doing it, they're just not talking about it! LOL I keep hearing about people building entire server farms just for mining, and while it sounds beautiful, it also kinda feels like propaganda :-/

robzilla

9:21 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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@robzilla, I was hoping you guys would say that everyone with tech knowledge IS doing it, they're just not talking about it!

Ahh yes, a bit like all those SEO secrets we're keeping ;-)

NickMNS

9:23 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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Realistically, cryptocurrency (sorry, Purists!) and NFTs feel a LOT like a good way for cartels to launder money...

It didn't go so well for this couple:
[washingtonpost.com...]

csdude55

9:28 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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@robzilla, I know, you guys are SO mean! I just know there's a big secret you're just keeping to your mean ol' self! >:-(

ronin

10:40 pm on Feb 9, 2022 (gmt 0)

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I'd recommend everyone watch this video:

Line Goes Up – The Problem With NFTs
[youtube.com...]

which @NickMNS referenced in the web3 thread.

So far, I'm only halfway through it (it's over two hours long), but... it's nothing short of a feast for thought.

ronin

9:21 pm on Feb 15, 2022 (gmt 0)

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As I understand it, the fundamental difference between cryptocurrency and NFTs is that the former is fungible and the latter is... (you know what the latter is).

Technically this renders each a different type of asset from the other.

But... it remains the case that both are dependent on the blockchain so I'm not persuaded that they're that different.

After all, a custom one-off designer wallet is non-fungible and a $1 banknote is fungible... but that doesn't mean they can't both be bought, sold, traded etc. in whatever currency they are conventionally valued in. So the quality of fungibility (or lack of it) surely doesn't differentiate tradeable assets that much?

Anyway, in my roundabout, tenuous way, I'm trying to find a way to introduce the following:

Wash trading in the NFT marketplace.

Traders are selling themselves their own NFTs to drive up prices
[engadget.com...]

NickMNS

10:21 pm on Feb 15, 2022 (gmt 0)

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As I understand it, the fundamental difference between cryptocurrency and NFTs is that the former is fungible and the latter is... (you know what the latter is).

Fungibility is not either or, there are degrees of fungibility. Bank notes are fungible in the sense that if you have a bag full of them and you reach in a pull one out you are typically indifferent as to which specific bill is pulled. But Hollywood movies have taught us that that isn't always the case, a bag of sequential marked bills is likely less valuable than a bag of unmarked non-sequential bills, so less fungible. The same is true for Bitcoin, where billions worth of Bitcoin are blacklisted after being identified as stolen in hacks. So how fungible is Bitcoin or Ethereum really? An NFT is to some extent like writing a message on a $20 bill. If you can trace the serial number and determine when the bill was minted you can know that the message did not originate before that date. You can also give that bill to a friend or sell it, and so long as you have possession of the bill you can prove that you own it. If the message has value, then the bill is not fungible. That is what an NFT is crypto transaction with a message attached to it.

so I'm not persuaded that they're that different

They are but variations on a theme.

As to wash trading, what do you expect in a new and completely unregulated marketplace.

csdude55

8:09 pm on Feb 18, 2022 (gmt 0)

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Anyway, in my roundabout, tenuous way, I'm trying to find a way to introduce the following:
Wash trading in the NFT marketplace.
Traders are selling themselves their own NFTs to drive up prices

Interesting side note, I see the same thing done locally with commercial real estate. I see hundreds and hundreds of acres of land being sold from one shell company to another, back and forth, and it's caused the value of commercial property here to go up by about 300% in the last 10 years!

No major businesses or anything have come that caused it to actually be worth more, it's just a type of forced inflation.

There's local speculation (a widely believed fact, I guess) that it's all done to launder drug money, like on Ozark. But who really knows?

Sgt_Kickaxe

4:51 am on Feb 20, 2022 (gmt 0)



csdude55 - Crypto plays a role in it, it protects from a catastrophic dollar devaluation. If the dollar crashes you can retain asset value by selling hard assets for crypto, at least for now.

NickMNS

4:52 pm on Feb 20, 2022 (gmt 0)

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it protects from a catastrophic dollar devaluation

That is what they would like you to believe, but in actual fact crypto currencies are risk assets that correlate closely with other risks assets such as stocks.