Is it just me or WW devolved into how to game Google, or G bucks?

In Foo so no message counts for any

[tangor]

The web has changed. Webmasters have changed. Might even be called web wranglers ropin' whatever G dollar there is.

Recently the top ten posts of any given day are 6-8 g related. Most are whines about income with many begging for help to get out from a penalty.

Where's the webmastering part we joined (and remain) to push and educate?

Just wondering if it is me only who has seen this grand place becoming just another get rich with no work kind of place?

I haven't given up yet. Yet.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

Not just you. I joined as a greenhorn many years ago. WW was great back then and I learned so much and hopefully put something back in but things have changed.

[graeme_p]

Agreed. WW is Google obsessed.

[masterjoe]

When they own the majority of the search market, it's only natural that most of WEBMASTER WORLD would be geared towards Google.

[tangor]

Rest my case. Webmastering was/is about user experience and providing the best there is. G is just one way folks can find you. (search engine, and Bing and Yandex and Duck Duck Go and all the others, used to be Altavista, Hotbox and earlier) and not one of those chases were "webmastering".

Hucksters, on the other hand, that's a different story, and all too many seem to be hucksters relying on the G AD SERVICING (not search engine) for their validation as a "web master" which sounds cool at a beer or cocktail party.

With the rise of plug and play (wordpress etc) the tomdickharry do add webmaster to their last name and jump up hot stuff without a clue. Repeat: without a clue.

Grumpy mood tonight. I apologize, though really shouldn't as the "mom and pop" version of the web, the old "wild west" of the early days, where experimentation, coding, and expression, as well GREAT CONTENT, has largely disappeared. That part I truly regret seeing passed into oblivion.

I'll take a nap now. Will be more agreeable when I wake up.

[toidi]

It is interesting watching the web evolve. I just hope ww will be around long enough to see the current bubble burst. The resulting scramble for se dominance and how we can adapt should put the excitment back into the web.

[henry0]

I second tangor

Years ago I was very active in PHP, a very buzzing area, many posts a day!
today.. look a t it about 15 posts since June :(

[buckworks]

WW is Google obsessed

Okay, so post something with a different focus. Lead by example!

[Leosghost]

Some of us, especially tangor post on a wide variety of subjects , and start many threads ( as you'd see if you looked at his posting history ) not Google related..
But they get no or very little traction..because as he so accurately says , WebmasterWorld is/ has become, Google obsessed..

Okay, so post something with a different focus. Lead by example!

It has to be said, an exhortation like that would come so much better from someone who has started / posted recently many threads with a different focus.."lead by example" is easy to write..but apparently not so easy to do ? ..

I've posted many a non Google first post, and they only get only a few replies , and those usually from the same bunch of us ( including tangor, lucy24 etc ) that do try to animate WebmasterWorld a little outside of the "Google area"..

We appear to be "flogging a dead horse"..and a hand full of members cannot by them selves "animate" all of the non Google areas, if as it appears, few are interested in much other than their adsense stats..

Thank( whatever ) for the "spiders" and the "apache" forums, at least they, and their regular posters, keep the "tech" reputation of WebmasterWorld surviving..

[iamlost]

I joined in late 2003 having decided that I should repay some of what I had learned from lurking and testing. I spent much of my posting time in the HTML and CSS sub-forums as there were many finding the switch from table layout frustrating plus in the Professional Webmaster Business Issues as I felt that few webdevs were treating their sites as businesses. And watched with interest as Google search and AdSense rolled up the conversation horse, foot, and guns as the saying goes.

Yes, I was interested in ranking well in the new traffic power and AdSense was revenue manna but the WebmasterWorld focus seemed to narrow year by year. Then came a year when perhaps a half dozen threads, two I started, maybe four I participated in, that questioned Google statements/statistics and offered non-Google solutions simply vanished. I queried on the two I started: one I was told was against the ToS, on querying again in what way I never received an answer; on the other my query was met with silence.

I liked WebmasterWorld because a lot of the brightest most thoughtful webdevs participated, many threads were providing new insights, pushing the envelope of business on the web. However, increasingly those leaders were dropping out to post on their own blogs rather than at forums. And so it was three strikes:
1. fewer cutting edge benefits
2. Google increasingly represented as an overarching solutions provider
3. unexplained topic censorship
and I felt less and less affinity with the place. I basically went back to lurking. And sought benefits and offered some in return elsewhere.

There is still good information here, both current and especially in the extensive 'archives', there are still awesome people participating but strikes one and two still apply (I have no knowledge whether three does). So I mostly lurk. And regret.

To those who suggest that I could be helping out in the non-Google areas: yes, you are right, however my forum time allotment is otherwise invested. I am just adding my I-had-this-epiphany because it is a relief to read that others I respect have a similar concern.

[creeking]

I find myself doing this, too often.


" "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads," he says. "That sucks." "


[bloomberg.com...]

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

We have been discussing WW problems now for over four years. It's not as if we didn't see it coming.

[webmasterworld.com...]

[webmasterworld.com...]

[tangor]

Nap time over. "I'm Back!" kind of thing. As noted in one of the links above back in 2011 I tried the rah-rah for WW. I'm still here. And like a few have noted, I will probably go into lurk mode for lack of fun and adventure and exploration for anything that is other than google.

I'm not against the company. Heck I use their service for a few websites, but the writing is on the wall. (look at your stats and income, duh!) If one has not moved on from the g and embraced other avenues (AND MAINTAINED THE NEED FOR CONTENT) then "bye bye".

The webmasterworld thrill was in sharing code, insights, directions, layouts. That has disappeared. Tank you (sic) Wordpress and ilk. Cookie cutter sites rushed by hucksters (not site owners with content) which have queered (sic, yeah, that's politically incorrect these days, look it up in a dictionary) webmasterworld, which has become a "niche" in a niche. And damn it, I'm not liking that, or giving up, for a bit at least. My 2011 comments are still true, just not heard as loudly in the google noise these days.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

Tangor, in 2011 you said, "Webmasterworld is doing okay... better than okay. "

Would you still hold that to be true given that engagement on here is down by (guessing) 90%?

[tangor]

@BBW, my comments in 2011 were re: value and members then. That part remains but is, as you say, 90% OR LESS. It is now 2015 (coming up to my 10th anniversary on WW in November. I was once a mod here and have always been all that other happy crap we call participation and through all that I still think there's value in dem thar hills (old western slang, US Americana, think Hopalong Cassidy). The site ain't dead, but this G bent is tending to make WW "mundane". And that direction in that regard is the top 10 posts per day, breaks my heart.

On verge of lurk mode. Watching a slow death.

"Webmaster" used to mean something. A person skilled at a trade. These days it means chasing G with a Wordpress CMS (or other) plug and play with no clue how the thing works.. and WORSE has no CONTENT or SPARK to engage the user.

Elevating content (Content is King), that part I do truly miss as these days it seems to be how I can hang ads (usually through google) on my krap site for yet another of one million others doing the same manure.

The site has legs and will continue for some time. Good folks heading it up. In that regard it still has a future. Sorta.

But leading from behind is a tough row to hoe. As long as Adsense and G dominate, and few offer alternatives (I try, speaking into an empty well), we are where we are.

Edit: Just checked the front page of WW. Six of the Featured Ten topics were G and one was specifically Adsense. This might be an indication of where the current membership is headed. Or it might be a kow tow. Not sure. Just wondering.

[buckworks]

Everyone around here is free to write about what interests them, and others are free to respond ... or not. Such is life on a discussion forum. We all do what we can.

discussing WW problems now for over four years

What positive actions can arise from those discussions?

[Leosghost]

What positive actions can arise from those discussions?

None.. if the views and insights of the members are ignored..or swept aside..
But then maybe the direction that the forum has taken , is the direction that is / was wished for by the new owner / team..?

To judge from the mere handful of members posting in this thread, compared wityh the "activity" ( although even that is waaaaay down on past years ) in the adsense threads since tangor started this one..we appear to be the only ones at all concerned by the direction that WebmasterWorld has taken..and the paucity of posts and engagement outside of the adsense.. threads..

[edited by: Leosghost at 3:19 am (utc) on Oct 15, 2015]

[buckworks]

What views and insights are being ignored?

[Leosghost]

All those that were expressed down the years..referred to for example by iamlost above..and a comment by martinibuster in the
[webmasterworld.com...] also comes to mind..There have been many others, perhaps you missed them..very long threads in community centre and foo, those who were ignored, or brushed aside, have for the most part ceased posting altogether here..maybe some of them read occasionally..

Something that I would have found shocking, except unfortunately I was not surprised, was how few of us posted in this
[webmasterworld.com...] thread..How soon those who gave so much of their time here are forgotten..

[buckworks]

I couldn't find a post by Martinibuster in that thread. Please elucidate.

As for the "direction" wished for by the new owner, I can't speak for Jim but I'm pretty sure he wants this forum to be a place where useful discussions occur. He provides the venue but the content of the discourse is up to us, the members.

That brings us round to my earlier point. If someone is annoyed by Too-Much-Google, the answer is not to stifle discussion about Google, it's to add more other topics to the mix.

Again, that's up to us.

[tangor]

All that buckworks notes is true. All other views are also true. My observation is that since the site makeover, and the change in the number of posts routinely shown on recent posts means the google threads push any new content out of sight pretty rapidly. Not sure how many will page through recent posts to see what's there.

As for php perl, css, html and others which speak to the "technical side" aren't seeing traffic since nearly all new websites these days are products of wordpress or other canned cms offerings. These days few of the new webmasters actually get their hands under the hood, or understand how their sites work. In that regard the handwriting is on the wall.

Increasingly most new members only want cut and paste answers... don't have the time or desire to embrace the "open study" and "education" which webmasterworld has been known for, and often seem a bit miffed when they don't get that cut and paste reply.

These are not complaints. Observations of what has been slowly happening over the last four or five years. I won't be changing what I do, though the frequency might decrease. I like this place, this community, and the folks who live here.

[lawman]

For the past few years WW has done everything from policy changes to rewriting the site's code. Certainly no one can legitimately complain that it is policy (moderation or otherwise) that is keeping them from participating. Markets change; forums try to adapt and remain relevant.

[engine]

As buckworks says, it's up to the community to talk about what it likes.
Like it or not, google has such a great impact upon so many in the world that it's difficult for the many to avoid. Whether it be Android phones, Chrome browser, YouTube, Chromebooks, GWT, etc., and that without mentioning Google search. Of course, when google drives so much traffic it's no surprise that people want to talk about it. None of that makes anyone a Google fanboy.

The Internet has changed, and it's up to each of us to recognise that change and embrace it, and that's something we've been trying hard to do. It's never fast enough for some, and it's a step too far for others.
Social media has become a whole new sector in its own right, and has meant a new type of person and interaction has developed. Many have been brought up on the 140-character discussions and just don't talk so much, and the relatively short, snappy discussions have their place, but it doesn't replace the longer, more in-depth discussions of a forum.
Mobile: That's been the big shift for many, and a great deal of webmasters have struggled to adjust. I met a good number at Pubcon last week, and some were looking for ways they could take their "web" site and turn it into a mobile opportunity. They weren't sure how it was going to work for them. And a mobile app is not for all.
Local is another sector badly neglected, imho. This opens up so many opportunities for the smaller business, not to mention the bigger businesses with local presence.
Note, I hadn't mentioned google in any of this.

Back to this site: Suggesting that people are being ignored could not be further from the truth. There is a constant development process going on to improve the system, which was badly needed. Many of these improvements were and are under-the-hood so that the system can work more effectively, safely, and with fewer problems. You won't have noticed many of them, but they are there. Progress on visual improvements were on the most part, welcomed, and we have taken the constructive criticism on board, both positive and negative views, with many of those suggestions being put back into the development program. The development program has so many items on it, and it just won't happen at once, so patience is required, thank you.

What we have to do is to look forward, and discuss topics relevant to the membership, and you can help on that front. Rhetorical question: When was the last time you started a new thread in the sectors some of you mentioned, other than google? Whether it be a question, news, or a point of view, let's do it. Rhetorical question 2: When was the last time you welcomed a new member? It's up to all of us to do that.

One point mentioned is that other content seems to disappear off the new posts list because of the Google chatter. Let's talk about how we might make that easier to discover.
There are some great topics in the forums, and content discovery is always important. Let's work on this, together.

So much to do and so little time.

[ken_b]

One point mentioned is that other content seems to disappear off the new posts list because of the Google chatter.

I'm guessing that's the Recent Posts list, the old Active Threads List?

If so I wonder what % of posters use that list, and has the use level changed since the list name change?

I've been wondering if more posters simply limit themselves to direct visits to the Google sections?

On another note, it's not always easy to decide where to start a thread. Some fit in multiple areas, and some areas get very limited traffic. I started a thread the other day, no replies. I could have chosen another section but wasn't sure where to place it, so I opted for what I thought was probably the most general section applicable. I dunno if the subject either interests no-one, is so badly worded, or ? At any rate, there it sits. Cross posting isn't allowed, so that's out. Fortunately it was more of an observation than a critical question that I needed help with :)

But back to the Fast Scrolling off the Recent Posts list, that wasn't the problem, and I don't see that as a problem here much anymore. 10 years ago you could hardly keep up with the scroll rate on the Active list, not so much anymore.

Still lots of great help available here. When I updated to a RWD this spring it would have been a lot harder without some of the ideas/knowledge I found here, mostly in then current threads.

What we don't get so much of here is a step by step instruction in how to do whatever, and I'd guess that probably has turned off more than a few people. It's not hard to find that kind of info for some topics other places, but that's never been the nature of WW. I'm fine with that, but in a world of increasingly demanded immediate gratification it may limit participation rates.

.

[AMC4x4]

Well, I'm new here obviously. I'm one of those Wordpress (formerly Joomla) folks who got hit with what I expect is a penalty, and was doing research to try to find out why.

I have been building sites via straight HTML, Joomla and now Wordpress mostly as a hobby or to help people out. I work for a technology company that's doing some quite revolutionary things in the storage world, and I'm trying to find out how I can help the people who trusted me with their corporate website to help get the word out. I thought we could do that by posting a mix of product content and theoretical blog posts that might help stimulate some discussion (assuming people could find us).

All I knew was the traditional "SEO" route of posting articles and content, adding legitimate outgoing links and hope that major players found us interesting enough to link back to us. I was given advice along these lines by someone who has been in marketing for a long time. At his suggestion, we hooked up with one very visible site that was able to reprint some of our blog posts and link back to us, but then I recently realized they also have 30-40 subdomains where they mirror the same content under different "magazines." I think I've finally realized that's what eventually killed our rankings, which previously were pretty decent for a small company in the storage space. Perhaps they inflated them at first, but then we were smacked down. So we're going to try to continue growing our content library and try to make our product pages (only a couple pages really) more interesting to those who come to see us.

In short, thanks to you folks and my reading on this site (among a couple others), I'm learning that SEO seems to be "done?" I thought SEO was something smart people did to get Google to put them near the top of the heap in organic search. Now I think I'm learning that it's far better spending my time on interesting content (with, as we were doing, legitimate links to interesting sources) and hope that Google has a way of figuring out that we're trying to be legit.

I find this forum interesting because of the responses I've read from you folks. I only post the background above to hopefully note that there are still people here that are just interested in trying to get our word out there the right way, and aren't just looking for tips to get around ad blockers. I realize mine might be a special case, as many folks here seem to be professional webmasters. I'm just a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none who is trying to help my company get some visibility. It appears I took the advice of the wrong people, and now I'm finding the right people.

So please. Keep posting. Your knowledge is important. Really.

I just felt it was important to step in and say that. I hope I'm learning the right lessons, and I hope you all keep teaching.

Cheers.

[tangor]

@AMC4x4, welcome to webmasterworld.

New folks always welcome (btw, you are invited to take your scenario and develop a thread on it to get real feedback I'd suggest our link building forum).

This thread is not a gripe thread or oh my gosh the world is ending thing, but it is a recognition that the general conversation has taken turns and the needs of webmasters have changed.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

When was the last time you started a new thread in the sectors some of you mentioned, other than google? Whether it be a question, news, or a point of view, let's do it. Rhetorical question 2: When was the last time you welcomed a new member? It's up to all of us to do that.

I am not sure that this a contributory factor. It was never a problem in the past?

[tangor]

Personally I try to welcome all new members. As for starting new threads no Google, I think my history speaks for itself.

I'm almost sorry I started this thread. Almost. I will continue to participate as long as it is welcome, and rarely will be it be G based as the web is so much larger than that single company. Can only urge others who feel as I do will do their part to keep the other areas of webmasterworld working and of value.

There was a mention that makes an odd sort of sense: where do YOU as a user, link to ww? I come in through the recent posts list which is now limited to the most recent 25 (used to be active posts I could set to last 100 but that is no longer possible) because that puts me into the newest posts at ww. If you come in through the front door all you see is the top ten-ish featured, and those by TRAFFIC seem to be generally G related and selected by editor/admin, though not intending that to mean a bias to G! Just top posts/ hot posts.

The other thing I see, even by the current posters, is burnout. Not all of us are as stern hearted or dedicated as tedster, JDmorgan, Marcia who could cheerfully and singly reply to the same question by newbies to the list WHO NEVER READ ANYTHING ELSE ON THE LIST WHICH ANSWERED THEIR QUESTIONS time and again. Many of us just go "sigh" "not again!" and do nothing.

I took a look through the unanswered posts filter and golly gee, there was a lot of that. I do appreciate burn out. Been there, done that, try to avoid it, sometimes have to take a nap and then try again.

But the creative part of ww which I miss is the coding for content, the presentation of content, the make the page better, faster, leaner, SMARTER. That part is missing at the moment. I know it will come back, these cookie cutter WP sites, Joomla, etc, are limited as they are predefined out of the box. Mobile will help shake that up, new viewport sizes, etc. And webmastering, with knowledge of the content will return.

Not today.

Maybe tomorrow.

I'll be here.

[graeme_p]

I think WW has failed to move with the times. henry0 points out that a lot of boards are virtually inactive - cull them! Otherwise, WW looks stuck on just old stuff - you can discuss Perl, but not Python or Ruby or server side Javascript or anything else new. Apache and IIS have boards, but there is nowhere to discuss Nginx any other webserver.

Whole interesting areas of development are ignored - spidering, search (I mean things you can develop and deploy yourself. not just discussing what Google are doing), APIs (working with things like Twitter and FB).

All of social media gets fewer boards than Google alone.

For myself, there is nowhere to discuss most of what I do these days - in fact nothing other than HTML, front end Javascript, neither of which I spend much time on, and the occasional SEO or adsense issue. I use Django/Python for plain web development, Scrapy and Solr for spidering and search, and I am currently learning Haskell (and may learn another functional language like OCaml or Erlang). None of which I can discuss on WW.

[tangor]

You can discuss anything, and if there's sufficient interest in the discussion then bet your bippy there will soon be a forum.

The silence which has been noted comes from ... silence by the members. Have no doubt we all have much to say and (I am one) have not because the "lean" has appeared google and how to make a buck.

There is more to the web than g. I am making a new commitment to kick the tires once again and see what this honkin' web can do.