Is web development for grown ups?

[Mister_L]

Lately I've been thinking about my future in the business of web development. I'm now 32 years old.
Maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to imagine a serious 50 year old dude writing javascript for a living. I can imagine middle-aged doctors, hardware engineers, lawyers, accountants. For some reason, I can't imagine the same for web developers. In most companies I couldn't find a web programmer over the age of 35. So what do you think - is web development for grown ups or not?

[RedBar]

I seem to remember a few years back here someone asking how old we all were and there were many 60+, I'm now well into this age group, older coders don't simply "give up", they usually become busier and more productively focussed doing something worthwhile and not necessarily for financial gain.

All the young'uns I taught in the 90s are all approaching 40, mostly all with good jobs and, interestingly, do not feel under threat from "newbies" since they've grown-up with their employers' businesses and are massive assets to their companies.

[keyplyr]

68 & still a coding junkie. Started with Univac & IBM in the mid 1960's in the USAF. This was prior to PCs and even basic. Binary was king. We used IBM 126 key punch machines to enter data into main frames.

My first actual coding experience was with weather, writing the National Weather Service ticker-tape info into 4-bit data strings for cross-system access.

Coding will keep going on forever. Who knows where it will go, but it will keep going.

[toidi]

Did i miss a memo or something? When did the age of 32 become not grown up?

[bwnbwn]

Mister_L + looks like to me your showing the 1st signs of what we older over the hill call burn-out. Starting to doubt your future is one of the 1st signs, I would step back take me a week or so off with no phone or computer and relax.

Sometimes you just have to leave all our connected crap behind chill refocus on your priorities and future.

[smilie]

>> Mister L: In most companies I couldn't find a web programmer over the age of 35.

I was just at a party last night with 5 guys around 40, 40+. The most successful of them wasn't there (multi-millionaire).
4 out of 5 run their own businesses (only one business is completely offline). One has 20+ employees , one has 5. One sold a company this year. 2 of them would've been millionaires by now if not for Google Panda/Penguin, but they are doing fine. All of them were programmers at one point.

>> I'm now 32 years old.

Think bigger. Good time to start.

In web development you can have some projects on the site for years (because you can do stuff remotely from anywhere in the world), and if one of them scores you can switch from a "job" to be on your own.

[elguiri]

For me, growing up means sacking the boss. Web development, affiliate marketing etc has been an excellent vehicle to achieving that.

[ergophobe]

But when I look around, I hardly ever see web programmers over the age of 35, and it makes me wonder why.

Do some math. Programming for the web became a major career option around, say, 1997. It really wasn't mainstream at all before then. So you take a person like me who is 52. Well, by 1997, I had a PhD in a field totally unrelated to web dev. Strangely, I actually have spent a fair bit of time coding, but that's rare that someone with a PhD in another field would end up there. For me, there were things that getting on the web allowed me to do (live in a place I really wanted to live) that academia did not. But the vast majority of people I know stayed in the field they had chosen by 1997 (which was commonly not what they majored in in college because by 1997 we were 12 years out of college).

Now take the guy who is 30 right now. What career did he have in 1997 that would have required courage and retraining for him to leave and go into this new web thing?

Let's see... oh right, he had learned how to wear big boy pants and was figuring out that girls are much more interesting than he thought a couple of years ago. He was trying to decide between fireman and pro basketball player except that he was short and couldn't jump and had asthma, so those were both looking unlikely.... but what to do? What to do?

Four years later, he sort of realized there was a wizard behind that web curtain and that doctors and lawyers knew jack #*$! about what was behind the curtain, but a handful of wizards did and a short kid who has asthma and can't jump CAN be one of those wizards. Dading... now he's building websites.

So a crap ton of people who are 30 made that choice because it was a reasonable choice and it will still be a reasonable thing to do in 20 years if it's a reasonable thing for anyone (assuming algos haven't replaced them all, regardless of age).

For my generation the choice was not about finding a career, but changing careers. And why would a 55 year-old who's looking at retirement in a few years change careers unless he has a compelling need?

Even in the programming world, lots of "serious" programmers just didn't see most of what happened on the web as serious. And if they did, they were doing backend stuff still in languages like C++ and Java and guess what, most of those people are still gainfully employed, but they aren't necessarily programming for the web in Javascript because they know a half-dozen language in depth and of those, until quite recently Javascript programming paid the least and had the least interesting problems to solve and you had to wade through zillions of lines of crappy code by self-taught programmers.

[DirigoDev]

I'll turn 50 next year. And I still code and will always do so. Eight years ago my marketing agency was loaded with 20-somethings. And we did good work for fair wages. Today my agency is staffed with a much more mature workforce with the majority of the coders in their late 30's and late 40's. We run circles around the old crew and make more profit because we do a better job and command higher wages. Our solutions are miles better and we don't have as much rework. We meet deadlines without the need of all nighters because we're plan-full and experienced. We know how to estimate a job and keep it in-bounds. I hired a 48 year old coder 6 months ago and he's bad ass wicked good.

In a few years my group is going to be full of 50 year old coders. Most of them started when the Internet started. They have perspective and wisdom. The lifers keep their skills current - Angular, Node, MVC, and they can program in Java, PHP, .NET, Rails... There isn't a single CMS system my crew has not mastered. It is best to stay focused so we try our best to stay in the same technology stack.

One more point. Even a 21 year old kid who can program can earn $65K+ in my market. So the kids aren't all that cheap. They're just inexperienced and lack a strong work ethic... I can get a 45 year old all day long for $80-$105K. Paying the extra money for the more experienced professional is way better (to be fair, it has nothing to do with age - I haired a 30 year old that started coding at 10 years of age - 20 years of experience rocks). Clients are willing to pay for real talent.

"Web Developer" is a dumb job title. Anyone that has ever built a website claims to be a web developer. Most "Web Developers" these days cannot program. Wordpress has exacerbated the problem because it has lowered the bar. In the years to come we can expect to see zillions of Web Developers that can't program. The gap between those that can and those that cannot will widen. I expect the market to be strong in 10-15 years for the 50-65 year old Master Web Developer. We are the Internet Pirates that built the web and profited hugely in the early years. There is much profit still to be had so we'll continue until our last breath. There is no retirement. This is a lifestyle.

[netmeg]

Did i miss a memo or something? When did the age of 32 become not grown up?

Pretty much about the time I hit 40; a hundred or so years ago.

[FranticFish]

One of the things I liked about IT (and by extension of that web development) was that the normal crappy bias about age, appearance, gender etc - all that irrelevant stuff - didn't seem to apply. I am in my early 40s and got into what I do in my late 20s - at a time when that age would see me as almost over the hill in some sectors. I work with my father, who owned early computers for fun then re-trained as a programmer in his 40s and who is now in his late 60s and still a great db programmer. Of course there are younger dogs doing newer tricks - and many of them are undoubtedly better than us at what we do and do stuff we can't (never bothered to learn any of the frameworks out there) - but then equally many of them aren't. We're doing OK, but I think that's because we've gravitated towards people that want bespoke and don't mind paying a bit extra for it. We're never stuck because there isn't a plugin for what someone wants on their site.

[DenRein]

70+ now ... and taking a break from Python coding. I have my own business now, having done well enough along the way to not be living paycheck to paycheck.

Rather than worry about whether you will be coding at the (decrepit) age of 50, shift your focus. Will you have *choices* at any time in your life? Are you always struggling with 2 weeks margin between you and financial ruin?

Here is the reason you don't see web developers over the age of 35: there is an increasing mis-match between what employers can get out of younger, less experienced people and what older workers will put up with.

You are 32 and the 35 "cliff" is only 3 years ahead of you. I would reframe your question. What are you going to be doing for the next 3-5 years? Will it make you happy? Does it have a future? Is it prosperous?

[shri]

While I have no problems dealing with technology, my attention span for looking at code and creating something from scratch has dropped significantly over the years - distractions like going to the gym, walking the dog, hanging out with the family, contracts, accounts, managing operations etc keep me away from anything more than 15-20 mins of coding sprints.

Where I see my value - performance, figuring out how to use a certain technology, building the community, reading a patent (yes kids it is a lot more interesting than copy pasting from stack exchange!).

My biggest fear and weakness right now is the ability to understand new code and frameworks - nodejs, meteor, laravel, The sad part is all of them have "to do" applications as their tutorials ... and going deeper into these frameworks needs a certain amount of dedication and stamina which I just cannot be bothered with.

I am ok now - approaching 50. Can I evolve and learn these new things, with my attention span and continue using this stuff when I am 60? Who knows?

[Nutterum]

I would like to put the light on the "no coder kids" . I am one for example. What I am good at however is marketing, data analysis (coming from the financial sector has its perks) and last but not least, understanding the technology without working it from the inside. I can see code and I understand what it means, I understand most programing language limitations and strengths and that is all I need to further the web development process. My biggest interaction with coding was(and still is) Google Tag Manager. But what I can tell you is that without me, the devs will be running like headless chickens. Hardcore programmers need people like me to give them focus. What is ruining my day however are all those "web developers" and "digital specialists" out there that think Wordpress and HTML/CSS tweaking is all that is needed.

In my perspective the most lucrative niche currently is to be the middleman. The project manager that is jack of all trades but master of none.

[aark111]

actually day by day IT fields are changing but keep in mind when change will come then salary of coder will increased.

[webcentric]

@Mister_L First, I didn't even start programming until I was older than you are now (and I've been doing this for almost 20 years). Age is not a factor. What matters is whether you have the experience required to get the job done, the adaptability and drive to keep your skillset current and a certain amount of love for what you do. I work for myself (own my own company) and can pick and choose my own projects. It may be right that IT companies like to hire young whippersnappers fresh out of college with at least a modicum of current technology skills. Youth can be stimulating to the creative process but creativity does not just belong to the young. Add experience to a creative mind and you've got something special. Of course, as others have mentioned, mature, experienced "coders" are usually more than just that and they can often punch their own ticket. If you're still just coding javascript in 20 years, you may find your skills obsolete and you'll probably be bored out of your skull.

ADDED:
I also want to echo what @Nutterum said related to business processes. We code to make our objectives a reality. Code isn't an end unto itself. Those who understand the underlying business processes related to the code they write are better coders for it. They also tend to be the ones who venture out on their own to start new businesses and launch new ideas.

[ergophobe]

The project manager that is jack of all trades but master of none.

Actually, in my experience, the best project managers are masters at managing projects and their other skills are mostly irrelevant as long as they know enough to communicate with all the players.

A good project manager is the most important make or break person on any moderately complex project.... but some people are great at it by 30 and some great coders should stick to coding, because they'll never be good managers, project managers, strategists or what have you, but will be great coders at 55.

[snippet]

I think there is some things that change as you get older. Many folks beyond 35 have families, kids... many other obligations in life other than just their job. The younger folks in their 20's may have less obligations and more free time on their hands... it creates differences for how they get their jobs done (schedule and hour differences), but I don't think it relates to any difference in the quality of the job that gets done.

But while I see the younger kids working crazy hours and popping on and offline at random times throughout the night, they are not necessarily more productive than an older person who sticks to a more regular routine.

You need both (I think) to have a balanced team who can get things done and see the big picture at the same time.

[RedBar]

Oh dear ... 60+, working crazy hours, popping on and offline throughout the night ... I've obviously not grown-up or not broken the habit ... what do you say leosghost?

[Leosghost]

:)) last night I finished at 04.30am..looked in here at around 12.00pm..Currently building new svg graphics whilst cooking dinner ( and lookin in here )..and watching a rather good German "polar" with Mme Leosghost..
Next year I should be retired "officially" ( 60 )..

The "webstuff" I'll stop ( the writing my own code part ) in another 5 years or so..but actually retire..no intention of doing so..artists / sculptors don't "retire"..unless they were only ever playing at it.. ;)

[Nutterum]

I believe that you can actually make a pretty penny opening the "Grumpy Old Coders.com" online design buro. With my publishing connections, I can get you on most digital outlets that matter in a month. :)

[pageoneresults]

NEED 55+ Forum!

I kind of like the BIG type too.

Start at 04:00, End at 16:00.

But, I only work in 1-2 hour increments. My L5S1 does not allow me to sit for any long periods of time. Most of the disc has been removed but there are still reminders if sitting for too long. We've had many discussions about seating arrangements over the years. It is the NUMBER ONE concern for ALL of YOU participating in this topic. Just like the bed you sleep in, that chair should probably cost just as much, if not more.

[ken_b]

Someone needs a nap!:)

[elguiri]

Most of the disc has been removed but there are still reminders if sitting for too long.

I haven't hit the 55+ range yet, but back pain is a constant issue. Have you experimented with a standing desk? As people are now calling sitting the new smoking, I knocked up an adaptation for my desk for $20-30 with Ikea bits (something like this iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk-for-22-dollars.html).

I did this for about 6 months. Most of the pain in my middle and upper back disappeared, BUT then my hip started to hurt. So it seems to me, that the question is not which seat, or whether to stand, it's how to keep moving. I suppose that's why the best standing desks are electric and can move up and down so we can spend part of the time standing and part of the time sitting. But they come at a price. Good news is that Ikea has just started making one for $489 called the Bekant Sit/Stand desk. Not for sale yet at my local Ikea store unfortunately.

Back to the original question. I don't think I'd like to be a web developer working in a company. I would feel that at my age I should have progressed on to something more. But as tool to working independently, and adding on other skills like affiliate marketing, SEO, it's a great way to go.

Freedom is the ultimate promotion.

[snippet]

On the topic of bad backs and chairs. I too have an awful back from an injury, but made worse by working at a computer all day. My take from about 10 years of experimenting:

1. Stand-up desks are not a sure win for everyone. I developed other issues with my legs, feet, and my back still hurt. Probably mostly due to poor posture. I just couldn't get it to work for me.

2. Using an exercise ball is ok. I enjoy it for a part of the day. The bounce is great for blood flow and your back/spine. But without a back rest (I tried some with a back rest, not much worked well) your back still gets pretty worn out and tired. Hard to put a full day in.

3. Zero gravity chairs. Great for the back, awful for my neck and upper back. I just couldn't stop straining my neck, shoulders, etc when I worked. Even with a monitor mounted above my chair in front of my eye sight. I wanted this to work, it just sucked. Plus it wasn't very practical. Drinking coffee was hard. =)

4. And the winner.... Most of you will not believe me... but I found a cheap crappy chair from Wayfair that has no wheels... but has a great lumbar support... It sits on a U-shaped bar frame that has a little bounce to it. It is great for folks (like me) that like to lean back a little. I think the perfect posture is a slight lean back... and this chair gives you great upper and lower back support while leaning back a little (balancing the chair on the lean). I know, sounds crazy. But this chair I can work in like this for hours and it doesn't hurt my back. You might need a foot rest to support your feet when you lean back a little... that helps. PM if you want a link... I'll find one for you. They are like $60 bucks. =)

[RedBar]

My husky dragging me out of the office several times a day for long walks sorts out my excercise needs ... working from home and taking breaks whenever I like is obviously a huge advantage.

[ergophobe]

Back Pain...

My back is way better now than it was in my 20s when I exercised with poor balance.

First, and most important, do core exercises and preferably not crunches and definitely not situps and leg raises. Instead try these (the first three are static, so good starters if you have back issues).
- front planks
- side planks
- palov presses
- turkish getups
- TVA (or TA) lowers - transverse abdominis - weak in many people even people with "strong abs" but an absolute key to a pain-free back.
- hip mobility, especially if you are in a chair a lot - you're shortening the muscles up front and lengthening the ones in the back abnormally.

Once your back is feeling good, add in some deadlifts and overhead squats. Nothing like 'em. Dan Jon interviewed a bunch of ex-Olympic shotputters and several said if they could only do one exercise for the rest of their life, it would be overhead squats.


Stand up desks.

The key there is you MUST have a chair at the right height so that you can shift seamlessly between standing and sitting. When I first started at a stand-up desk, I stood too long. When I got tired I cocked my hips to one side and stood on one leg mostly. After a while my hips, knees and feet were killing me.

But now I have a chair that I adjust so whether sitting or standing, my shoulder height never changes. This allows me to switch without even thinking about it. I only noticed because I'm typing this that I'm standing now. I think I was sitting this morning, but I don't recall.

[mcneely]

On the topic of bad backs and chairs

Fingertips and forearms .. My back is fine for all of the leaning over I do for the fact that I might need some new glasses .. but my fingertips go numb sometimes, especially after long stretches .. Those stupid ergonomic wing shaped keyboards they came out with about 10-12 years ago .. You know - They were shaped like something just flown from Mars .. ya those .. Someone thought they would help but only ended up making things worse.

Went out and got a standard keyboard with the inset keys (like most of the streamlined laptops have these days), and yes, I got rid of that stupid ergonomic chair too, and things began to improve. Fingertips still bug me, but not as much, and I settled for two pairs of glasses, for like, just in case.

As far as standing or sitting? I'm a sitter. I spill enough coffee already.

But a buddy of mine I went to college with did drafting/engineering, and he said the sweetest set up would be that tall stool that puts you into a nearly standing position already at the drafting table. He said he stands mostly, but when he gets tired, he kind of half leans and half sits in order to finish his work.

[incrediBILL]

do core exercises and preferably not crunches

You're very right.

I do 12 oz. curls (beer) but I also do crunches, the cans must be crunched!

[fathom]

When you hate beer, what then?

[ken_b]

When you hate beer, what then?

Grab the beer from the guy next to you, lift it high and then drain it on the floor just before you crunch the can on his head. This will also give you the opportunity to practice your sprinting skills.