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We grew up with technology, and information at our fingertips. We have more knowledge than any generation before us.
We grew up expressing our opinions and point of view. We expect to be heard, and our thoughts considered, even if not acted upon.
We grew up with a sense of success. A knowledge that we can be whatever we want, with hard work and determination. That we shouldn't settle.
Recent events like Columbine and 9/11 made us realize life is short, more so then any threats in the past (cold war, etc) as these hit home. Because of this, we don't put work ahead of friends and family.
We multi-task. Just because we appear distracted by music, and other stimuli, doesn't mean we aren't still working efficiently and effectively. This is how we grew up.
We know our abilities and limits, and how we work best. We don't work well chained to a desk 9-5. We need freedom.
How do you explain to an employer that his workforce (all 20 somethings) that there management style is costing them employees. They aren't leaving because they are "young and immature" but that they are quiting and seeking employment elsewhere because of you. Because you don't challenge them with work that enables them to learn. That watching the clock like a hawk discourages them and ultimately decreases there productivity. That stifling their ideas and creativity destroys their moral.
As you might have guessed. I'm in that situation now... My boss (company owner), comes from a communist country. He feels he gives his employees a lot. When in reality, he gives the minimum the laws allow. You work 9-5:30, with two 15 minute breaks (which he threatens to take away if you happen to take 16 minutes, literally!) You get 30 minutes of unpaid lunch, and it's near impossible to actually go out if you want to run an errand or meet someone. It's so quiet it's like a church! Talking to coworkers while working is discouraged. All his employees are in their 20s. We have to arrange and pay for our own coffee service, and he insists the coffee maker be unplugged evenings and weekends, so when you get in on Monday, it's an hour wait for coffee....just what you want on a Monday morning. If you go above and beyond and make a project better (because you were given no scope in the first place) you are called into the office and lectured. Don't even think about calling in sick unless you're dead...while we get a mind blowing 4 days a year, when you try to use one, you end up feeling guilty and can end up coming into work. Miss your normal break time because you're working, and don't even think about taking it later...no way. You end up watching the clock all day and killing your train of thought just so you get your break, which ultimately, slows down your work. And don't even think about telling your boss he's wrong...even if it's an absolute and you prove it...it takes an hour to dig your way out of the hole, and you end up having to do it his way anyhow, only for it to fail, and THEN you get the blame when it fails...after all, you worked on it.
I could rant for hours...
Would you believe this is an IT company?!?!
Is this a total lost cause? Or is there a way to open this employers eyes to reality. That giving us the bare minimum only ensures we give the bare minimum in return?
Lilliabeth, I have a better one; have them convert an IPV4 to a BIGINT... no run/calc
My employees come from schools that didn't require them to actually learn anything. Many of them can't spell, have attrocious grammar, can not formulate ideas logically, do not know how to make change without pulling out a calculator, and have no attention span beyond 5 seconds
Though, if you're going to rag on the younger generations "attrocious" grammar and poor spelling, perhaps you should spell atrocious properly.
Calculators? Who uses them? Why not get an abacus? Maybe it's just me, but I can honestly, unequivocally say I see more people in there 40s using calculators than those in there 20s. Secondly, if the job requires "making change" it's not something a post secondary graduate is likely to be doing.
And you're calling ME the illogical one?
Next, where did I say anything about showing up late? Or leaving early? I mentioned I have to watch the clock because if I don't, I get screwed over. My coworker who is ALWAYS early because at the time she was the only employee with the codes to the alarm got reamed out for only being three minutes early, not five like he wanted her to be. Seriously, how can you expect your employees to want to stay late when you treat them like that? I put in the time, I'll work through a break if I'm on a roll, but conversely, I ask that when I take a couple extra minutes on my next break, you don't jump down my throat about it. If there's an accident on the road, and traffic is detoured several blocks and I arrive 10 minutes late instead of the 5 minutes I'm usually early, you don't yell at me, THEN dock me pay or expect me to make it up...because when I arrive 10 minutes early, I'm not paid for it. Hell, this kind of treatment made me come into work the day after I broke my collar bone. Would I have liked to take the day off? Hell yes. At my previous job, I would have had no problem taking a couple weeks off, nobody would have batted an eye. Here, I don't even get a "Thanks for coming in despite the obvious pain, and still doing your job." Nope, nothing. Now, having brought up my previous job, I quit because of a software purchase of 20 year old technology, that used a language called Envision Basic...which I'm sure you haven't heard of, and the scraping of all our custom work. Software that can't do graphics, and is literally a bad windows GUI over a telnet application. Oh boy, there's what I want to spend the next 20 years working on. Something that's had a horrible data structure mashed into SQL Server and you can't write a query against without splitting up the key field to get the actual ID of the record. Yes, another brilliant management decision...clearly all us 20 year olds were selfish and over confident when we said "Don't buy, we'll modify our existing application, or build new, cheaper, and faster than integrating this into all our other applications." That's my government dollar hard at work. So I figured, I'd go to a smaller company, with fewer employees, where my input would be listened to, and you didn't have a ton of red tape to get work done. If it needed doing, you do it. Simple.
Wow...did I ever pick the wrong place. Seemed great for 3 months. The code base was pretty bad, scattered bits of asp, .net 1.0, and 2.0 and a lack of standards between the prior coders...but hey, I can clean it up. Improve the code as I'm fixing bugs, make it more efficient, make it work properly, and build new applications.
There was even talk of 1 day a week being set aside to work on our own ideas for the company. Six months later...nothing.
He buys the software he should build. Builds the stuff he should buy. Buys cheep when he should buy expensive, and expensive when he should buy cheap. Seriously, you don't cheap out on the Air Conditioning (Buys stuff made to cool a bedroom) and UPSes (for PCs not servers) in your server room if you rely on your website being up 24/7 to make money. And don't complain to me when they keep failing. Finally, he ended up getting a half decent A/C unit...after going through five cheap ones, and not catching on that it's not the units fault, they aren't made to be on 24/7.
I don't regret leaving my prior employer, it was the correct decision, I don't want my skills to fall behind, I want to stay current. But this is NOT what I signed on for. EVERY employee of his, other than the guy who's straight out of University is looking for new employment. The only reason he's not looking is his resume's longest position is this one...at 5 months. He has to stick it out somewhere if he wants to be a desirable employee.
/end rant.
I'd love to be working for myself, but at the moment, I don't have enough clients to make that a full time reality.
Chiding narcissism falls on deaf ears - we all know that - so I'll say what needs to be said instead.
Gibble, either quit or go postal! Otherwise, children should be seen & not heard. ;)
You've essentially two options:
1) Head-hunt the best of your colleagues, form a partnership and snatch the rest of your colleagues at a 10% increment and free coffee
2) Get a bank loan, and offer the 10% increment package to whoever want it
If you can snatch a large enough number of employees then your boss will be unable to complete ongoing projects and the clients will need to look elsewhere. Fair bet that you can pick most of them up as well.
Chiding narcissism falls on deaf ears
I suppose you're right. Best we can hope for is that when he's our age he runs into someone just like himself.
Head-hunt the best of your colleagues, form a partnership and snatch the rest of your colleagues at a 10% increment and free coffee
The boss is bad is one thing, stealing customers is another. I am definitely against this. What if Gibble is wrong and is comparing things with the ideal world.
Professional ethics! - My advice is don't do something which can hunt you down in the future. Keep your future just like the blue sky (whatever that means)
Habtom
[edited by: Habtom at 2:00 pm (utc) on Aug. 22, 2007]
Though, if you're going to rag on the younger generations "attrocious" grammar and poor spelling, perhaps you should spell atrocious properly.
And for the record, my twist on your OP wasn't an exact flip. I was also pulling in experiences with other 20-somethings to give you an idea of what a lot of your peers do.
In your situation, with your current boss, you certainly have a right to complain. But please don't consider that a prime example of companies run by us older folk. That style of management is more like 50s-style "management" (or so I've read) and I didn't think many of those dinosaurs still existed. Most of them ran themselves into extinction if they couldn't adapt to the new environment.
And also for the record, I have no problem with a lot of the things you mentioned (telecommuting, flex hours, flex breaks). But not every work environment or business is suited for it. True, often older managers are afraid to implement things like that just because they don't know how to manage people flexibly. But for coding, I agree for the most part that if the code is done on time and correctly, it shouldn't matter where or when it was written.
Here's a bit of knowledge you may have missed:
The ability to be an effective manager, a good employee or generally a wonderful person ... and conversely the ability to be a total jacka** ... is something that crosses all lines of age, gender, race, religion, ethnicity, vehicle ownership, styles of dress, socio-economic brackets, formal education and music preferences.
As far as the situation at hand - you're unlikely to persuade anyone that inflexible (regardless of age) to change their style, especially if he owns the company. Deal with it or move on.
Obviously:
You have not yet had to make payroll through rich times and lean, with happy employees and the entire lot hating you and slowing productivity for their own reasons.
You have not discovered having ONE boss is different from being bossed by every one of your clients and half your employees and vendors who all think they know your job better than you.
You have not noticed that people outside the generation you claim to speak for don't live for their jobs either, they have learned to accept their jobs as necessary for life and stopped sniveling quite a while before you hit the workforce.
Much the same was said about Generation X [a stereotype with which I never identified], who are now the people you complain about yet will become in 10 years.
I thought I would be shaking a cane before I felt compelled to address another human as Son... ROFL
I thought I would be shaking a cane before I felt compelled to address another human as Son... ROFL
Lilliabeth: when he's our age he runs into someone just like himself.
Oh, he will, because the more things change, the more they stay the same. ;)
I remember those days in my 20's - bad bosses, stupid bosses, getting in trouble for wanting to make things easier/better/etc. - I got in so much trouble. I've been working for myself now for 11+ years.
I had a contractor that we no longer work with because as a member of that younger generation, he felt entitled to do the "cool stuff" not the boring repetitive web stuff - without realizing or understanding he had to earn the right and our trust in his abilities to deliver... (he didn't deliver on much of anything) He now works at a big box store, oh well. I wish it had been different.
this is NOT what I signed on for
Then make changes. If you can't do it within your current situation, then go somewhere else. It's really up to you. (I remember saying something similar once ;))
LisaB
How did I do that?
(Please don't make sweeping (and wrong) accusations, at least not without smilies, since that's in the same vein of thoughtlessness as any other bigotry.)
I understand where you are coming from, which is why I have basically always worked for myself well since before university, and feel claustrophobic even in companies that I create unless I'm more or less the only one in 'em!
But blaming others for their supposed intransigence and short-sightedness simply reveals your own conceited intransigence and short-sightedness, I fear.
If I've been able to run a business-or-three of sorts since I was ~16, then you can too. Stop whining and DO it. Yesterday.
Stop spending money on iPods and beer, and build up a reserve so that you can walk. And don't expect to have the iPods and beer money for a while.
Rgds
Damon
I don't want to settle...it was your generation that ingrained that attitude into me
Haha, when did succeeding generations start paying attention to preceding generations?
You had 2 jobs, you hated both of them. So find a job you like and leave. Ask better questions at your next interview so you have some insight into the company's way of doing things and your prospective boss' management style and expectations.
Welcome to the real world. It's not all about you - get over it.
I'll quit if you want to pay my mortgage, utilities, and car payments...
You have a simple choice- continue working to afford those luxuries you've bought, or get rid of the luxuries so you don't have to work.
If you look back through all the posts in this thread, you should be able to glean a lot of information that people have been giving you.
You have stated over and over about how your generation has more knowledge/information than previous generations (which we have argued about in terms of semantics). But you are forgetting one key element that your generation (and you in particular) does NOT have over your prior generations: experience.
If you did have the experience, you would have known to do more due dilligence in terms of investigating the work environemnt before accepting the job. You would have discussed your expectations with those of your boss BEFORE taking the job. You would have asked about the potential for flex time, telecommuting, and all those other perks you seem to expect. The boss would have told you no, and you would have decided that this wasn't the job for you. (Of course, the boss could have lied and promised you the world just to get you on board, but that seems incredibly foolish to hire someone who won't be happy in the job.)
One thing you get from experience is learning how to evaluate your potential boss and determine how well (or if) you will be able to work for him/her. Similarly, you learn how to evaluate your potential work environment/culture and determine how well you will fit in there.
You also learn that the boss/company has more "corporate inertia" than you do, so it is MUCH more likely that YOU will have to change to fit into the company than having the company change to adapt to you.
And yes, sometimes you learn by being in a bad environment and making mistakes. Back in the day, I also foolishly tried to impose my limited years of experience on companies that had been around longer than I had. :)
I've worked for a number of companies, from sole proprietors with a couple of employees to international conglomerates with thousands of employees. I've learned how to adjust to fit in to different environments (or walked when I didn't think I could or didn't want to change). I've learned how to work with different bosses, even when I completely disagreed with their style of management. Similaraly, I've also learned how to manage employees from different age groups, diffirent cultures, and use differnet styles of management, depending on the employee/circumstances.
And I'm still learning- in fact, I've probably learned more just from the days when I was a 20-something and decided that I already knew everything. :)
Assumptions are made...what makes you think I didn't ask good questions in the interviews? If I'm not mistaken I already outlined the differences between what I was told and saw in my interviews, with the reality a while after I got here.
You're assuming I think "It's all about me!" What makes you assume that?
The fact I expect to be treated like a human, rather than a machine? Not having to explain to the boss that sometimes, despite leaving early, traffic/weather gets in the way.
I started the thread, hoping to get ideas how to make my boss realize he has to change or he's going to lose every employee he has by the end of the year, because every one of them is currently looking.
Shockingly as it may sound, I'd rather see him succeed than fail.
What have I said that is so outlandish that warrants people writing me off as "young and ignorant"?
As I mentioned earlier, most of these responses prove my point. My words aren't taken seriously, nobody is actually reading and trying to understand what I'm saying. They just see some "young whippersnapper" trying to stir the pot.
It's my point precisely. Rather than offer something useful, the only responses have been
1. Quit and work for yourself.
2. Quit and work somewhere else.
3. B@H! Damn kids!
1 and 2, while genuine answers, aren't exactly the simplest of solutions. And if I do that, I'm labeled a young kid who can't make up his mind. Too carefree, and disloyal. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
And three is merely bitterness, born out of years of accepting things won't change. Yet...why people accept that when things are constantly changing is beyond me. It's reeks of laziness.
Changing for the sake of changing is a recipe for disaster, but so is an inflexibility to change.
I was frustrated with leaving one place because management killed my ability to learn by stepping backwards with technology, and I arrive at another, who's technology is more current, but management style keeps me gagged and chained to my desk.
Had a person in their forties started a similar thread with the problem that they were a manager and couldn't retain younger employees and wanted suggestions, and wondered what would keep them around. I'm sure people wouldn't be coming in here saying "Don't change. Let the ingrates leave. B@H, they're only damn kids!?!? They should be thankful you hired them at all. Ungrateful, know-it-all punks!"
[edited by: Gibble at 6:52 pm (utc) on Aug. 23, 2007]
If you did have the experience, you would have known to do more due dilligence in terms of investigating the work environemnt before accepting the job. You would have discussed your expectations with those of your boss BEFORE taking the job. You would have asked about the potential for flex time, telecommuting, and all those other perks you seem to expect. The boss would have told you no, and you would have decided that this wasn't the job for you. (Of course, the boss could have lied and promised you the world just to get you on board, but that seems incredibly foolish to hire someone who won't be happy in the job.)
Ding, Ding Ding! That's precisely what happened.
And I was joking about having someone else take my mortgage, etc...but that *is* the only way I can afford to quit. :)
[edited by: Gibble at 6:51 pm (utc) on Aug. 23, 2007]
You're assuming I think "It's all about me!" What makes your assume that?Well, let's see... Maybe it was where you said:
We're different than our older coworkers, we need to be managed differently.
If you really don't think we have more knowledge than the generations before us...well, that's just ignorant.
I don't want to settle...it was your generation that ingrained that attitude into me.Also, your unwillingness to listen to anythign that WE are saying. You asked for our advice, we gave it, but you're refusing to listen or act on it.
I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.Hey- welcome to life!
Shockingly as it may sound, I'd rather see him succeed than fail.
Rather than offer something useful, the only responses have been
1. Quit and work for yourself.
2. Quit and work somewhere else.
Ding, Ding Ding! That's precisely what happened.
One final bit of advice: you could try talking to him one-on-one (as the eldest employee there, speaking for the rest of the group) or with a small group. Sit down with him and explain all these things that you have been saying here WITH A NON-CONFRONTATIONAL AND NON-CONDESCENDING attitude. Put things in *HIS* perspective (not yours) and explain how it benefits *HIM* to meet your demands. Examples may include more efficient work, better work, and less employee turnover (tread lightly on this one, otherwise he may take it as a threat that you're all going to quit if he doesn't meet your "demands"), all of which could mean more revenue and profits for him.
Again, experience gathered from years of working would have helped you learn how to try to work with managers, rather than create the we workers vs. "the man" attitude at work, or the similar we younger workers vs. older workers that you've created here.
[edited by: LifeinAsia at 7:26 pm (utc) on Aug. 23, 2007]
If you go above and beyond and make a project better (because you were given no scope in the first place) you are called into the office and lectured.
I first came across this in the 70s while working for ITT. Every year a new intake of programmers, and the big issue was always stopping them trying to 'improve' on the spec. It was very difficult to get some individulas to accept that if the client has agreed to a project spec, then that's exactly what the client should get. The A-items were to get the project out on time, to specification, and within budget.
The second hard fact they had to adjust to was that after a year or eighteen months when the project was finished, there would be a brief celebration. And then they started again.
Here's an example:
> We have to arrange and pay for our own coffee service, and he insists the coffee maker be unplugged evenings and weekends, so when you get in on Monday, it's an hour wait for coffee....just what you want on a Monday morning.
A compromise has been struck. Want coffee? Ok, labour pays for the service & consumables, management pays for the electricity. All are happy. Except on Monday mornings. (Is there a problem with machine being off at 3 in the morning on Saturdays? Is there someone in the office to drink coffee at that time? I thought "kids" these days were concerned about the planet "we" are handing off to them.)
(Which brings me to two asides: Labour should have bought a better coffee machine; 15 minutes maybe, but an hour wait sounds like hyperbole. And on Monday mornings, support fellow Gen-Yers by visiting Starbucks.)
Presenting demands means there is an implicit "or." Or what? You'll walk out? Stack those Dead Presidents before demanding much; while your boss may have come from behind the Iron Curtain, he may be aware of how Ronald Reagan handled the demands of the air traffic controllers. (An incident, coincidentally, that occurred 26 years ago this month, when Gibble just entered diapers.)
NEVER, EVER forget that there is always someone more hungry than you.
Quid pro quo, my friend, aka, "There's no such thing as a free lunch."
That's the way it is: you really can't have all the control you want and all the perks you want at the same time. It's called "facts" not "condescension".
And, BTW, I'm convinced that I have worked with and for one of the brightest and nicest guys in the world, and even *he* gets it wrong from time to time and he remains a close friend but not my boss, his PhD, CEO skills, etc, notwithstanding.
I'm *sure* that you are smart, but the difference between that and *right* is often *experience*.
I believe that experience is defined as "Just what you needed to know just after you needed to know it."
When it comes to promises of work environment: (1) get it written in the contract if it is really important to you, that's what writing is for, and (2) don't take the contract if you don't like it. And I've barely seen an employment contract that I like in the last 20 years. Really. That's why I consult instead.
Don't confuse our earnest advice with small-minded slap-you-downs. This is all hard-won experience: see above!
Rgds
Damon
[edited by: DamonHD at 10:07 pm (utc) on Aug. 23, 2007]
If someone mentioned that I missed it ....
