Forum Moderators: open
The major trouble is that the content is generated by users. There are inherent liabilities involved. Having languages on a site, where you are the content generator, with a proactive competition, is a large liability hole.
As far as I know, there are no other forums that offer multi-language support on a public system (no login required to read) where they don't have multilingual paid staff. I can't envision a scenario where it would work. Those that think it would, need to remember this is the USA and not European laws at work.
One thing that would be possible is to offer a number of single non-English language forums, run by moderators from the language areas involved. The European forums that I have seen tend to spend a lot of time discussing things that someone has seen in WmW. Conversely, the moderators of these local language forums could pick up nuggets from their discussions and bring them to the English speaking parts of the board. So, perhaps something like that might be of use to all parties concerned.
>run by moderators from the language areas involved.
That's one thing I've considered. You may have heard I've approached several people last winter about doing just that.
Any other suggestions on or comments on such a setup?
No, I guess I didn't pay attention. Will improve myself - I promise. :)
Perhaps existing boards might be interested in bringing them over here? WmW has high page rank and so ranks high for searches on SEO and webmaster related subjects. The existing moderators are extremely knowledgeable and would be a great support to new mods from other countries. There are probably more arguments, but these were the first that came to my mind.
Let's hear what our members think.
well my somewhat selfish view is that i'd like all the forums to be in english ... i'm based in the uk and generate hits and web/mail order sales from "continental" europe, and i need all the help and hints i can re european language serch engines and euro countries, and i might miss something if i can't read it. my own language skills are grossly inadequate.
i used translation software to translate an email into spanish for a customer who wanted some info...
she thought it most amusing,(and replied in perfect english) infact it tickled her so much she spent money, so it did kind of work.
The main disadvantage IMO would be a breaking apart of the community. Not that Iīd insist on having a warm and cuddly place here, but a direct communication between members across forum borders is a great advantage of WMW. Members communicating in their language would be effectivly very much shut off of the other forums.
Another negative effect could be that much of the stuff would be discussed in all language forums seperately. AV.Europe closing in French, Dutch, German, Spanish....
Too much rambling on the same subjects over and over again, members getting lost in fractions and details...
This could even lead to WMW loosing the cutting edge, with other places taking over.
Iīm sceptical.
This is a tough one... on the one hand, english has rather become the "default" language for the internet and business world, and many non-english-speaking countries give their children a better-than-passing knowledge of english in their school systems. I can think of a few non-native english speakers in the forums that get along terrifically well... my only complaint is that their websites are in their native tongues, so I can't read them!
But one could argue that those folks in countries where english is not taught are exactly the locations where the economy/individual income levels could use all the help joining the "internet economy" they can get... including native language support from educational resources like WebmasterWorld.
And I can only imagine that a server-side translation script/service would be a tremendous load on the WebmasterWorld servers...
If only such a tool would exist! Would be just so great! Iīm afraid though itīs a veeeery long way to go.
Aol sued for Chat/Forum Room Language [dailynews.yahoo.com]
Welcome to WebmasterWorld. I hope you will like our "University of Search Engine Optimization".
Itīs been exactly 7 months that I was welcomed here in the above quoted fashion. I can not recall to have ever learned that much in such a short period. At first I felt rather intimidated by all the big names and the high post counts. But generally the atmosphere here at WebmasterWorld has been friendly and open. Collegiate might be a good word to describe it.
What we are studying here is an ever evolving subject. The structure of this board reflects that fact in being open to new subtopics, in inviting new members to bring in new ideas, in permanently monitoring new facts and developments.
We had a thread here a few months ago, where many members admitted to use the board exclusively from the active post list. This is fantastic given the constant stream of incoming posts. To stay abreast you have to check how often? at least 10 times a day, 20 times..? But it is rewarding: from Google update cycles to the best cross browser dots, from the latest PFP rollouts to the new beta SEs, everything comes your way, and if you need a break you might talk lawn mowers (?!).
WebmasterWorld is the perfect university - for the English speaking world.
English is expected to drop to 29% by 2003 and in a few more years, it will be down to its share of the world population (8%) [webmasterworld.com]
Examining the situation now itīs obvious that some progress has been made. WebmasterWorld has undoubtedly collected the best knowledgebase on the European Searchengine scene on the web. It has a quite active asian forum. But if you look harder you will also have to admit that for example the german speaking online community, communicating in the 3rd or 4th most used language online has brought between 4 to 10 active members to WebmasterWorld. How many Russians do we have among us, how many Chinese members? Imagine how valuable a constant stream of information on those countries could be. Also think about the contribution members participating in WebmasterWorld could offer to the evolution of the web in their countries. Like in a true exchange both sides would win.
How could such a win-win scenario be achieved? In my first post, I have tried to articulate the dangers I see. The discussion then moved to possible automatic translation devices. Without any doubt this would be some kind of solution. But even if a software was available that offered a reasonable translation, which is not the case right now, this would not ensure a lively discussion between members from China and Mexico or some other country.
Such a lively discussion would only take place in language specific forums. It is, as Rencke pointed out, the only possibility to bring members from the non english speaking world to WebmasterWorld, actively discussing their concerns without feeling intimidated.
But how to bring those subforums together? How to make sure you can still monitor the active posts list without being overwhelmed with information? How to avoid the dangers of an organisation growing too big?
Undoubtedly opening seperate language forums would lead to a breaking apart of the comunity as it is now. WebmasterWorld would by any chance be organised along the lines of the ODP: You have the regular stuff, and then comes world mirroring stuff in all other countries.
I do follow a german search engine forum and yes, a great part of discussions there is devoted to german SEs and surrounding issues. But of course Google, Fast, new browsers and the like get discussed there also. The problem of members seperating along the lines of language and country could not be avoided.
The most demanding task would be to create well working gateways between those forums. Sure, moderators would be in charge, who could collect valuable results from those forums, bringing them to the "main forums". They could also bring the knowledge from the "main forums" to their specific forums. Producing overviews and reports would be a major task for those moderators.
In the German forum here at WebmasterWorld where Iīm participating we quite often have questions , comments and additions from members not speaking German. In other words: Now WebmasterWorld is a very good place to study country specific information without speaking the language. I think this is a big advantage for american and british members. How could this be preserved? Iīm afraid as long as there is no reasonable automatic translation software available there is no real solution to that.
So as far as I can see the task of incorporating the dramatic changes of the online population into the concept of Webmasterworld could not be fullfilled easily. It would involve hard work from moderators and people in charge, and it would in the long run involve the implementation of automatic translation devices. I suppose this could not be done without a solid funding. The organisational structure would most likely have to be changed.
But then, if we call WebmasterWorld a university, are we not obliged to open it up to the world? The very subject here is the world wide web. Perhaps the choice is this: Stick to English and risk becoming a minority forum or open yourself to the world and stay abreast.
just my 2 cents(=smallest coin of the new european money)
Native English users curious about what is beeing written in foreign language forums could use any online translators to get some rough idea. Administrators could use the same tools to control the input. As long WmW can gather enough trustworthy moderators, to build some base and then to give a good support in any given language it could dare to give it a try.
As for my part, I will translate TOS to French, may be for next month.
Definetly a quagmire of inexplicable conditions and implications.
Comp base translators (natural language processors) are not good enough with too translate english to whatever language, never mind chinese to german or something other.
Spanish is the largest spoken language at the moment in the world, not english.
Figures suggestive of english droping to 8% on the net - seem from my point of view slightly optomistic or pessimistic which ever way you wish to look at it.
For this System to go to that extent would take massive investment into the structure - translation - maintanence, it would surely faction the board, but does seem certainly within the next five years enivitable.
Thoughts about the question ?
Brett - you could just do it anyway, and have a new rennaisance of language learning for all members.
Definetly a tricky one
would it be OK in terms of character sets?...that can be a pain in the proverbials, especially with dynamic sites
Local language Forums will work only if well working gateways between those Forums and English language ones will be created and maintained by moderators.
The main goal being providing a good support in any given language, duplicate discussions should be avoided. I wouldn't like to see general discussions and info about local SEs turned into local languages only and thus becoming unreadable to other users (or available only via a babelfish-like translation).
OTOH, more country specific information could be provided by non_English speaking users attracted by and attending local language Forums, and then shared/translated/discussed with the community at large.
Brett, I guess you can work on a step-by-step basis, knowing that in the long run, a dramatical change in the the organisational structure *and* the implementation of automatic translation devices will be needed.
freetranslation.com/
What I thought was interesting is that it's got a little tool for special characters.
This is where I found it, so it might be some example of how it compares to some others (the little translation box is on the lower right):
communitiesofthefuture.org/refs.html#translate
even if every phrase in use in the languages was programmed in, there would be an element of context that would be obvious to a human translator that a program would be bound to miss
they are wonderful as a way of gleaning some basic information from existing documents in a language one doesn't understand...but as a way of producing text they are simply a faster alternative to using a translation dictionary, and a tad less accurate
Spanish is the largest spoken language at the moment in the world, not english
Surely this depends on how you define your terms.
Most reports show English, but define you terms as 'first language speakers' and the whole picture changes.
I have seen reports on the web that claim Mandarin as the most spoken 'first language', and others that have Spanish way down after English, French, Mandarin and Hindustani.
No doubt the stats reflect the needs of the organisation presenting them, but it is still interesting stuff.
Any other claims for top slot?
Is there any reputable resources that give a definitive picture?
1. Chinese, Mandarin Brunei, Cambodia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Mongolia, Philippines, Singapore, S. Africa, Taiwan, Thailand
885.0
2. Spanish Andorra, Argentina, Belize, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Rep., Ecuador, El Salvador, Eq. Guinea, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Spain, Uruguay, U.S., Venezuela
332.0
3. English Australia, Botswana, Brunei, Cameroon, Canada, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, The Gambia, Guyana, India, Ireland, Israel, Lesotho, Liberia, Malaysia, Micronesia, Namibia, Nauru, New Zealand, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Somalia, S. Africa, Suriname, Swaziland, Tonga, U.K., U.S., Vanuatu, Zimbabwe, many Caribbean states
322.0
4. Bengali Bangladesh, India, Singapore
189.0
5. Hindi India, Nepal, Singapore, S. Africa, Uganda
182.0
6. Portuguese Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, France, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal, São Tomé and Príncipe
170.0
7. Russian China, Israel, Mongolia, Russia, U.S.
170.0
8. Japanese Japan, Singapore, Taiwan
125.0
9. German, Standard Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Czech Rep., Denmark, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Kazakhstan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Paraguay, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Switzerland
98.0
10. Chinese, Wu China
77.2
11. Javanese Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore
75.5
12. Korean China, Japan, N. Korea, S. Korea, Singapore, Thailand
75.0
13. French Andorra, Belgium, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Canada, Comoros, Congo, Congo (Dem. Rep. of), Djibouti, France, Gabon, Guinea, Haiti, Luxembourg, Mauritania, Monaco, Rwanda, Senegal, Seychelles, Switzerland, Vanuatu
72.0
14. Vietnamese China, Vietnam
67.7
15. Telugu India, Singapore
66.4
Figures in Millions.
But surely more relevant in this context are online languages. Will post some figures on that later.
I have always felt that what the internet is best at, is introducing and exposing people to other people they'd never otherwise meet. We generally think in terms of experiences and exposure to different cultures. Most of the time we tend to think of other people in terms of religions, governments, or social habits we've all built up over the centuries. Discussions of those items can often end up as points of contentions and cornerstones of conflict. Once you tear all that way in the manner that the internet does, we are all pretty much alike.
We most often experience exposure to other people via psychical travel. The internet short circuits that normal introductory step, and just allows people to be people without all the historical and cultural baggage. Even though we have all heard time and time again how global the internet is in nature, it is still rare that we have direct contact with people outside of our own cultures. I feel that interaction needs to be encouraged.
In late 1996 when IRC (internet relay chat) was just getting up a head of steam, I had a profound and life changing experience. I found myself in a chat room with a woman from Northern Ireland, a man from Moscow, two people from Bethlehem Israel, a teenager from San Palo Brazil, a man from outside Paris, and woman from Tokyo. For about six hours we sat and discussed general topics. The woman from Ireland complained about her feet being sore from walking her kids a kilometer to school everyday. The man in Moscow was worried because his flat complex had just double the rent. Pretty much the same mundane concerns about our lives were echoed by all present. It certainly brought home how similar our lives were regardless of the artificial barriers put up by our cultural, economic, and political backgrounds.
Given that as a backdrop, that's why this topic is so interesting to me. I think it is important that WebmasterWorld continue to facilitate and expand upon the personal interaction between people. Many of us have noticed WebmasterWorld members "handi work" on stories and discussions elsewhere on the net. Add in the fact that we are the ones that develop and publish sites, and the total impact of such discussions can be far greater than the sum of the individual parts. Seeds planted here, tend to flourish here and elsewhere too.
The main concerns to starting alternative language forums are:
A - liability to the board.
B - fracturing of the membership.
C - sustainability of such forums.
A) The recent historical reality of liability is pretty clear given these occurences:
- The Yahoo forum lawsuits.
- The recent AOL forum/chatroom suit mentioned in this thread.
- The recent discussions over terms of service on several noted net sites.
B) The fracturing of the membership concern is best described by others in these thread. It was right on target.
C) Sustainability. There are several things I've learned about starting new forums:
- It must come from users. There has to be an over ridding demand for a new forum. We can't just throw up a "nice idea" forum and expect it to be self sustaining. The members have to want it.
- It takes a moderator that is passionate about the subject and will take personal ownership for the "care and feeding" of the forum.
When we add all that up, I don't think we can sustain alternative language forums, moderate them reliably with an eye towards legal protection, or benefit the membership at this time.
online languages
Angiolo already posted [webmasterworld.com] the url for those figures provided by Global Reach [glreach.com]. A short summary:
1. figure: Online pop. today in Million
2. figure %'age of world online pop
3. figure estimation for 2003 in Million
English
217.8 45.0% 230
European languages (excl. English)
144.4 29.8% 290
biggest here: German
30.07 6.2% 46
also big: Spanish
20.4 18 4.5% 60
Asian Languages
121.9 25.2% 270
biggest here: Japanese
47.3 23 9.8% 58
also big:Chinese
40.7 8.4% 160
Now there is a lot to say concerning usability and reliability of those figures. Going into details reveals huge problems coming up everywhere.
But on the whole it gives a pretty good picture of whatīs going on in the online world and whatīs to be expected.
