Forum Moderators: buckworks
I lose the other 20% on shipping calculation, so thats not entirely bad (Was much worse before estimates were obvious on the product detail pages)
So basically my success rate is only 16.2% on my funnel tracking - so my cart abandonment is roughly 83.8%. Thats crazy.
If 58% of my cart abandonment is merely people not wanting to login i find that absurd.
How does it hold on your sites? We used to allow anonymous purchase on our old platform but it made for a terrible support nightmare from order management & customer support side. We weren't really getting great funnel analytics on that system either since the process wasn't standardized through a single purchase workflow like it is now.
My business is doing well, but i'm surprised how much abandonment there is during login.
Think of it like those brick and mortar stores that have the customer programs. Every time you buy something they ask "Do you have a #*$!X card?" if you say no they ask you if you want one. That is annoying enough, imagine now you HAVE TO sign up to buy something... I know if I was told I had to sign up to buy the stuff and was faced with some long form.... I would leave my items at the counter and walk out. Why should it be any different at an online store? You can have people sign up but why make them? All the reasons I have seen listed here are to make life easier on the vendor not the customer.
Making life easier on the vendor shows to customers - especially when it is very seamless. When as a business you're more streamlined it tends to reflect heavily on your customers as an appreciation of your efforts.
The account portion of our checkout is no longer than making the actual purchase - just adding a password to the field. No harder than signing a receipt.
(This is all about options really.)
My opinion of how this works on an anonymous little ecommerce website versus Amazon would differ considerably.
So the entire login debate has been based on the premise we're an anonymous little ecommerce website?
I mean surely we aren't amazon.com by any means but were spending the money and resources on a platform to give us something to leverage to be as comparable to the "big boys" as possible.
So in hindsight this entire debate has been for not; The ONLY thing that matters *IS* the brand and its the trust factor - not login-a-phobia that will factor out cart abandonment over time.
So in hindsight this entire debate has been for not
I would say that this thread, as most threads on WebmasterWorld, has been helpful to many people. To say that it has been for naught simply because you didn't get the answers or the outcome you expected because you didn't define your parameters in the beginning is rather selfish... but that's just my own (selfish) opinion anyway so take it for what it's worth.
Seems to me that it shouldn't bother people to fill in one more field on a form, just as you've said. What I think many site owners forget, however, is that it really doesn't matter what you think, what I think, or what any of us thinks. What matters to the bottom line sales figures is what THE CUSTOMER that is using your form RIGHT NOW thinks. If they click out because they see the word 'password' and freak... then you've just lost a sale. It doesn't matter that they shouldn't have cared, or that it shouldn't matter, or that it's better for your accounting, or that it's just one extra field... what matters is that you've lost a sale.
If that's worth it to you, then continue. Maybe losing a few sales a month, a week, or even a day depending on your traffic is worth the headache you'll save on accounting by having a forced login. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't totally discount lost sales or say they don't exist because it doesn't fit with your personal logic. People aren't logical all the time, and will dump out of your order form for some really stupid reasons. Again, it doesn't matter WHAT the reason is... you've just lost a sale.
Furthermore, please don't discount what people here tell you about your practices after you've asked for opinions simply because you've ran it by a couple of people in the real world and they seem to think it's fine. The opinions and views you get here will, undoubtedly, vary from the average web surfer, but no matter how advanced the knowledge of this community... we all still shop online. We're all customers at one point or another... and if you lose one of US because you force a login, you've still lost a sale.
just adding a password to the field. No harder than signing a receipt.
Um... you don't sign a receipt with a new sig every time, and you are not asked to remember what you signed so yes it is harder.
No offense Bryon but I disagree with your general outlook on this.... if you force someone to sign up you aren't doing them a favor no matter how you spin it.
An option to sign up, yes... a requirement...why?
Furthermore, please don't discount what people here tell you about your practices after you've asked for opinions simply because you've ran it by a couple of people in the real world and they seem to think it's fine. The opinions and views you get here will, undoubtedly, vary from the average web surfer, but no matter how advanced the knowledge of this community... we all still shop online. We're all customers at one point or another... and if you lose one of US because you force a login, you've still lost a sale.
I'll agree to disagree.
I've learned a lot from this thread and it caused me to think about the core issue.
I don't think the core issue stems from logging in, it stems from being recognized as a safe, reliable and worthy brand. Almost every assumption made here has been based on either BEING or NOT BEING a brand they trust and not the actual act of logging in.
COULD i get more sales by allowing anonymous carts? probably. WOULD i be better off? Hard to tell since i'm not in a bind right now.
Originally when i opened this thread my concern was that logging in was the issue but after MUCH research and taking EVERYONES feedback to heart the issue seemed to stem less from "logging in" but more on brand loyalty.
I mean, look at amazon. They've managed to be community driven but yet many people here wouldn't have made that association and in fact seem to portray that as a waste of time.
I was also looking at this originally from the concept of conversion = everything. After grinding my numbers its come to the realization that ROI = everything. For every customer that walks off because they did't want to sign in to buy a 7.00 USB cable i get a customer who comes in and orders a 300.00 cpu that is delivered to his doorstep within 48 hours. THAT customer will come back and WILL order and WILL login and WILL leave feedback and WILL tell his friends and WILL have a positive ROI.
SO yeah, i learned a lot from this thread. It was some great inner soul searching! :)
I will add that:
I was also looking at this originally from the concept of conversion = everything. After grinding my numbers its come to the realization that ROI = everything. For every customer that walks off because they did't want to sign in to buy a 7.00 USB cable i get a customer who comes in and orders a 300.00 cpu that is delivered to his doorstep within 48 hours. THAT customer will come back and WILL order and WILL login and WILL leave feedback and WILL tell his friends and WILL have a positive ROI.
This is filled with presumption. Wouldn't you rather have both guys order? The $7.00 USB and the $300CPU? Why one or the other? Assuming that the $300 guy will come back and the $7 guy won't is silly.
The way I see it the $7 guy is happy to have gotten his simple USB item with 3 clicks and 7 fields to fill out and one submit button and so he comes back when he needs the $300 CPU because he remembers how easy it was.
You can have it both ways. It really isn't that hard to relate multiple anonymous sales to each other if your database is normalized and you have the ability to query it.
Um... you don't sign a receipt with a new sig every time, and you are not asked to remember what you signed so yes it is harder.
Not entirely true, your missing out on the entire process, procurement and support aspect. When you toss that receipt and need warranty repair, what do you do? Especially if you refused to give them your phone number or fill out the warranty info in the store. You can wait until the next business day and try phone support or you can login to our system and do an RMA online and be done with it ;)
No offense Bryon but I disagree with your general outlook on this.... if you force someone to sign up you aren't doing them a favor no matter how you spin it.
None taken.
An option to sign up, yes... a requirement...why?
It fits within our business plan, security recommendations, PCI compliance, auditing and risk exposure. Much easier to do when you have a single point of contact for an account then when you rely on error prone management of such in 3rd party processes.
Which translates to competitive prices and better service, at least from our experience in having it wide open before.
This is filled with presumption. Wouldn't you rather have both guys order? The $7.00 USB and the $300CPU? Why one or the other? Assuming that the $300 guy will come back and the $7 guy won't is silly.
Yes and No. When you throw that 7.00 cable into a 50 cent box and pay the labor/costs of getting that out the door its a loss until that customer comes back (if they ever come back)
BUT a sale is a sale if all you're shooting for is volume. Perhaps more volume will increase the margin over the long term but that requires more short term expenses which is hard to swallow unless your capitalized from the get-go to operate as such.
The way I see it the $7 guy is happy to have gotten his simple USB item with 3 clicks and 7 fields to fill out and one submit button and so he comes back when he needs the $300 CPU because he remembers how easy it was.
I don't discount that but shopping experiences tell me you don't remember the cheap ones that went well, you remember the expensive ones that go bad or the ones where you found exactly what you wanted. Not many people will put much effort into getting what they want out of a USB cable or remember that enough to come back for more.
Even as a loss leader i can chose to overnight the $300 cpu in a nice package and throw in some cpu grease to boot and still come out nearly ahead and make the customer REALLY happy.
You can have it both ways. It really isn't that hard to relate multiple anonymous sales to each other if your database is normalized and you have the ability to query it.
Right, but our BIGGEST exposure is the "then and there" and to be competitive in the electronics side we have to ship THEN and NOW. If we have to wait 24 hours to normalize for audit sake what can be done through an online history already established then we have already cost ourselves time in a market that demands 3 day delivery.
Put it this way. We can spend 10 cents once and normalize an account or we can spend 10 cents on every order and normalize it post sale - or spend money duplicating the data into a system that allows us to normalize against a historical system that hyrbid of the two - cutting margins and increasing costs.
Normalization isn't just the account but everything that goes into the account to make the purchase as smooth as possible - from full zipcode+4 support to correcting issues with streets/apartments/PO's and whatnot
I don't understand your requirement to relate all transactions back to a central account before you can ship it.
All you need to fulfill an order is proof of payment, an address and a list of products ordered. What benefit do you get from that one extra password field being on there? If it is the first time they order then account history gives you nothing... if they enter info wrong at the account level how is that better then wrong info just as the ship to?
[edited by: Demaestro at 7:38 pm (utc) on Mar. 19, 2008]
ByronM, you seem to have made a decision based on what you've learned. It is your business of course. :) But I disagree with your decision and even with your arguments for it. Primarily because in my world - where I work to improve a client's bottom line - everything that affects the sales funnel's effectiveness gets scrutinized. I question the value of forcing a user to create an account - even if it's only adding a password. Anything, including one or two extra clicks or keying in a simple password (3,9,? keystrokes?), takes the user's focus away from completing the purchase. Each one is another chance for them to click away to someplace else. But I'm focused on selling something for my client. Your goal seems to be different. While selling is definitely part of the goal, it also seems that you have some reasons that have a bit more priority than just selling.
Makes the point that each of us have a different priority - maybe even tolerance - for what might distract the user from completing the sale. While I'm not willing to subject my client's users to pwds on checkout, I will admit my checkouts are not perfect. I think I'm getting a better idea of your POV.
[edited by: lorax at 9:22 pm (utc) on Mar. 21, 2008]
Why I forgot this was Spring Break and in my sector this is a huge part of our customer base so it isn't really a fair test when all most of your customer base is at the beach.
Well, we did 50k in sales this weekend and there wasn't a large cart abandonment by any means and the few people who were leery about the purchase emailed/called and went back and purchased.
I'll say it again, the fear of login-a-phobia isn't our soul issue with cart abandonment and i feel (through my experience in this thread and many others as a direct result of opening up this debate) its so minute of an issue it isn't wroth the engineering/process management and order sequence changing to bother with.
Its all about BRAND, IMAGE and LOYALTY. If you don't already have a positive 25k reviews you're fighting against loyalty. If you don't already have a name association your fighting against brand and if you don't have BOTH of the above you're fighting against IMAGE.
Its TERRIBLY short sighted to focus on cart abandonment on people logging in.
You develop a business process that works and stick to it and provide the best darn service you can. Thats the ONLY way you can survive against thouse with BRAND IMAGE and LOYALTY.
Having anonymous checkouts on average purchase values of 500+ just seems like a terrible way to shoot our service in the foot.
sure, getting rid of logging in may make it easier to get to the next step of the funnel but it still doesn't fix the overly sensitive fear and doubt that these customers often bring and the higher cost of doing business with them.
whats the balence you look for? get everything you can at all costs or grow your business progressively building up a large group of sustainable customers who LIKE to do business with you?
I beg of you to ask your friends and family to try out a purchase on a site and ask them how they felt about it. Don't insinuate anything. Just ask them how they felt about it. I betcha 99.99999999999999999999% of the time "logging in" won't be on the tip of their tongue.
However if you ask someone on a webmaster forum or e-commerce site that will be the first pet peeve.
I'm STILL doing random questions, asking my linked in network, co-workers, friends, family, friends of friends, people i skate with, people i ski with, people in my flying club, people who i meet at social meetups/business groups and whatnot.
Maybe if 3% failure rate was acceptable we could open up to anonymous checkout just like some of the other sites.
When you sell computer parts fraud is already a huge factor of the price - not to mention RMA/Returns/Exchanges. Who in there right mind would want to offer 25k skus of such and not have a common point of contact with a customer for multiple transactions?
[edited by: ByronM at 1:13 pm (utc) on Mar. 24, 2008]
Its TERRIBLY short sighted to focus on cart abandonment on people logging in.
Wasn't it you focussed us on this?
For example this past week we experienced a 5.02% conversion rate on natural traffic. Thats REALLY good for an industry average of 2% or less. If login-a-phobia was a concern i would have expected our natural traffic to have reflected a less than average score.
We had a 54% funnel conversion rate as well this past week. Not terribly out of the norms and for the people that we got response from that didn't buy online and wanted to speak to someone on the phone, logging in was never a factor - it was brand, image and loyalty. HOW do i snuff up against newegg or amazon or zipzoomfly and why should they purchase from me was the overriding factor of cart abandonment.
I fell into the fear of login-a-phibia because thats what e-commerce sites want to believe the issue is but when you ask the customer its hardly the issue at all. When you look at your own business from the inside out it makes much less of an issue at all.
How do you define yourself as a company - what is your value, what is your brand, what is your image. How do you SELL Yourself?
Going anonymous doesn't answer any of those questions and if you're opening the door in hopes of more business then you have done nothing to define your business.
If your define yourself by customers who buy on a whim your business is surviving on a whim and it was through this discussion and many others that i grew and defined my own beliefs and decided to make a business decision on.
People who use the internet by nature want fast action. They don't want to mess about with log-ins and form filling.
Me personally, I couldn't give a fig about tracking and all that guff, I just want to make my purchase in the fastest time possible and move on. My guess is that there are many like me.
You have to look at what your competition is doing. In most cases you will find that they are probally doing the same as you are.from Trinorthlighting.
Next time I'll double-check that there aren't four more pages of replies before making a post!
Me personally, I couldn't give a fig about tracking and all that guff, I just want to make my purchase in the fastest time possible and move on. My guess is that there are many like me.
Well, if i order a pack of batteries, some kitty litter and a few dvds i won't get concerned about them unless its been a week or two.
If i order a few hundred dollars in computer parts or an expensive hdtv i typically check on that sucker every day.
One, i want to be sure i'm there to sign for an expensive item or know if its sitting on my front porch and two i want to know where something that is costing me a lot is going to be.
Ask any retailer and the single largest volume of calls is "Where is my product"
I would also like to re-iterate that the majority of our purchases are well thought out purchases and not random buys because they want it in 30 seconds or don't want to be bothered time wise to do something as easy as typing a password.
[edited by: ByronM at 2:39 pm (utc) on Mar. 24, 2008]
Ask any retailer and the single largest volume of calls is "Where is my product"
And what is wrong with:
"Can I get your name, address, and last four numbers of your cc"
Bryon I think everyone gets your point, the problem is you aren't getting theirs.
I am sure you do great numbers in sales as you have stated, but the ultimate question that should be asked to show if it is better to have people sign up or not isn't:
"How good are your sales?" ..... The question is...
"Would your sales be better if you didn't force an account creation on your users?"
Until that question is answered there is no point is arguing all these other points that will never answer the meta question being asked. If you truly feel that your sales would not get any better if you didn't force a login on someone then fine, my wager is as good as you are doing, you would do better without it.
[edited by: Demaestro at 2:46 pm (utc) on Mar. 24, 2008]
And what is wrong with:
"Can I get your name, address, and last four numbers of your cc"
Typically people would rather remember a username/password then bust out their wallet and confirm this information. Its all about convenience after all - why weigh the convenience of logging in as a disadvantage over the convenience of having everything at your fingertips. The less you have to rely on my toll free support the better your prices are.
Bryon I think everyone gets your point, the problem is you aren't getting theirs.
Not really true at all. The problem is that my question was naive of incorrect assumptions. Through this debate and soul searching i've realised that the question isn't "Will anonymous logins help my conversions" but "how can i better my business and shopping experience to help conversions"
Sure, for some people anonymous logins may play a big part in that - i don't deny that but for me - weighed against my market and my competition the competition isn't on 30 second checkout but on service after the sale and getting the products to the door as quickly as possible and anonymous checkout can HINDER more than HELP that so looking AT My business as a whole more than tiny little aspects of the site to me makes more business sense.
I am sure you do great numbers in sales as you have stated, but the ultimate question that should be asked to show if it is better to have people sign up or not isn't:
"How good are your sales?" ..... The question is..."Would your sales be better if you didn't force an account creation on your users?"
I don't think thats the question at all. The real question is "What can i do to increase my conversion and decrease abandonment"
We already offer real time ship quoting, final price quoting, inventory details, warehouse details, shipping etas and stuff like saved quotes and po's for the really big orders. You don't HAVE to go to the cart to see that but i think many customers are accustomed to sites that don't offer that and they simply try the checkout process because its instinctive and they abandon until they're ready to make a decision.
Until that question is answered there is no point is arguing all these other points that will never answer the meta question being asked. If you truly feel that your sales would not get any better if you didn't force a login on someone then fine, my wager is as good as you are doing, you would do better without it.
again, i think i learned what i should have asked.
The real answer isn't A/B tests or who is wrong or right but the real answer is how you motivate people to become a customer and get repeat business from them and anonymous checkout doesn't seem to fit our expectations on that for all intents and purposes.
Not only that, but the account part is derived from billing information on the 3rd step of the order process and that part only has a 1% abandon rate.
So i guess - do people have email-a-phobia? :)
and its safe to assume "yes" because i'll have hundreds of people expecting to be spammed just because i ask for there email address (Sad but true).
so yeah, you're right. Some people have login a phobia but they even explained they don't hold all sites to the same expectations. They will order from amazon any day and login any day but only do a quick purchase if they can not waste any time on a random site.
its tough to benchmark myself against the big boys and perhaps i'm naive in that way as well but thats for another discussion ;)
Typically people would rather remember a username/password then bust out their wallet and confirm this information. Its all about convenience after all
So you assume they remember the info they signed up with but not the last 4 digits of their CC which they use more then your site.. and if they don't know their name and address then there are new issues to deal with. Ok they dig in their wallet to get the CC number.. at least they know where their wallet is.. where is the username and password? Their office? Their home?
Again you are missing what everyone here is trying to tell you.... you keep putting "white house press secretary" spins on it.
The less you have to rely on my toll free support the better your prices are.
This isn't how customers think, this is how board execs think. You keep explaining how it is better for the customer through a 6 degrees of separation explanation.
It isn't about phobia... it is about ease. I am not scared to login... I simple do not want to. I am not afraid of passwords.. I don't want another one to buy something.
"Would your sales be better if you didn't force an account creation on your users?"
......
I don't think thats the question at all. The real question is "What can i do to increase my conversion and decrease abandonment"
Picky... Here I will alalgomate them for you.
Will removing a forced login increase your conversions and decrease abandonment?"
Again my answer is yes. And many other here are also trying to tell you that in their opinion that "yes" removing a forced login will increase your conversions and decrease abandonment.
You keep arguing why you should have a login and you keep missing that people are of the opinion that the above is true regardless of the reasons you provide.
Do I care if you have a login or why? No I don't.
If you want to know what I think about forcing an account creation on users as it relates to increased conversions and decreased cart abandonment, then I think that it hurts conversions and is responsible for some cart abandonment despite all of the reasons you site for it.
In my market the competition doesn't compete on speedy anonymous checkout but speedy delivery and excellent customer service. I don't believe that offering anonymous checkout HELPS that cause especially having had anonymous checkout before in which people just ordered cheap stuff and ran.
I won't disagree that i may get more customers but i'm willing to hedge i should be putting my business dollars in satisfying the consumer trust as levied against my brand, identify and loyalty vs making it easier to forget about me with an anonymous transaction.
I did some googling of our site and found lots of discussion on the hardware/home theater forums and not one of them said they didn't shop with us because they have to login and all of them said something about fear of trusting a newer retailer, doubt of trusting someone with such a fair price and uncertainty about a company that is competing against well established brands/identifies.
So as a business decision maker i've learned a lot from these threads and would like to thank everyone for their help.
I've simply walked away with a much more 360 view of the process as it relates to statistics as well as our actual competition and business plans.
wouldn't you also feel its naive to focus on a particular that doesn't really solve a business justification other than a convenience that isn't really in public demand?
Trust is a 2 way street. Its foolish to always think as a customer or as a business owner only. You have to find the combination of the two.
If i don't have competitive prices because of increased risk/liability/fraud and customer service issues then logging in abandonment is the least of my concerns so the balance is never a one way street for the customer because business is worthless if it isn't sustainable to begin with.
[edited by: lorax at 12:22 pm (utc) on Mar. 25, 2008]
To.....
****
Logging in - why you should have it even if users hate it, cart abandonment not worth attributing to forced account creation.
****
Your original title suggests you want to discuss if forcing account creation is responsible for cart abandonment which almost everyone on here is telling you it is. But you seem to want to convince everyone that your way is better DESPITE what everyone else feels about forcing passwords and user-names on customers. Worse even still is you use things that convenient you and your business and not your customer as justification for it.
Everyone on here is telling you that you can have it both ways... Anonymous purchasing and account created purchasing but you don't want to hear that... it seems to be one or the other for you.
Nothing you say will change the fact that people will abandonment their cart with items ready to purchase for no other reason then you are forcing them to create an account. Just accept this as fact.
Basically you are saying.
"I don't care about those of you who want to buy from me without an account."
Imagine Walmart forces you to sign-up for a customer loyalty card before they let you buy some toothpaste, you ask them why and they give you every answer you have given us about how it helps with customer service and how it helps lower prices and so on... would you really care to hear all that or would you just move on to get yourself some toothpaste from somewhere else? Follow up to that, when you need an entertainment center would you go back after having that sour account creation taste in your mouth?
Imagine Walmart forces you to sign-up for a customer loyalty card before they let you buy some toothpaste
Apples and Oranges here.
Walmart.com - which i just tried gives me two options. To login to my account or create an account when i choose to checkout. Thats exactly like my site. We just don't word it as bluntly.
Why should anyone try your cart or respond to anything else you post? You don't want to hear it. You want to hear what you think already. End of story.
This isn't Blue vs Red or Republican vs Democrat - this is an ever going process that i'll learn from and part of learning is taking public advice for what it is, not taking it as rules i have to abide by.
If you don't want to experience my cart and why i feel the way i do that doesn't mean i should bow down and say your right and frankly it sounds like I'M not the only stubborn person here :)
I'll be the first to admit mistakes. We had anonymous checkout before and it created lots of mistakes. Without anymous checkout have had had 0 mistakes once again and now business is back to booming.
I asked if people had a fear of checkout and only a select few chimed in to blatently make it obvious they hate logging in but a few have PM'd me, tried the site and gave me kudos and said "it wasn't that bad"
People are commenting on my concerns without actually seeing them and comparing me against something the process isn't.
Thats why i said what i said. Not because i'm closing me ears and go "lalalalaalalalalalalalal"
