Getting listed in MSN (JP/KR)

Looksmart + Inktomi? Where do I submit?

[seoboy]

I've been digging for days and I can't - for the life of me - figure out how to get my sites included in MSN Japan or MSN Korea.

I know that MSN Japan's directory is powered by BTLooksmart, and the engine is powered by Inktomi. I've found the directory submit page at [btlooksmart.com ].

But no matter how much I look, I can't figure out how to submit to Ink-Japan. Will the ([goo.ne.jp ]) Goo submission still get me into Inktomi (like the good old days)???

Also, I have no idea what the story is at MSN KR. I know that no one talks about them as a major player, but I also know that EVERYONE in KR uses IE as their browser, and I'd assume that means they are all "pushed" towards MSN, like in the states.

But I can't figure out WHO powers their KR site - for either the directory or the search engine. Can anyone enlighten me, and point me in the direction of some submit pages?

Thanks in advance,
seoboy

[bill]

If you want to get into MSN Japan you'll be best off going with a paid LookSmart listing. The Inktomi backfill on MSN is pretty dated from what I've seen...and going thru goo isn't a sure way into the general Inktomi database anymore if the past few month's SERPs are any indication...

MSN Japan is a real minor player in Japan. Most Japanese do not even know that MSN has a search function. If you look at the MSN Japan home page you'll see that they've emphasized their portal features more than anything. Search in Japan is heavily dominated by Google and Yahoo...MSN barely shows up on the radar.

We are very weak on Korea SE knowledge here at WebmasterWorld. I'm not sure how to get into that one.

[Woz]

I figured Bill would be along with the good oil on Japan so I kept quiet for a while.

As to Korea, I did some searches on MSN.co.kr and compared them to the same search on MSN.com. For example on one fairly restrictive search term the 8 Directory results were identical and so therefor one must assume they are simply using Looksmart material.

The Web results however were heavily biased towards local domains and so I assue they are using Inktomi with some heavy domain filtering going on.

Therefor, it does seem you need to target Looksmart and Inktomi as you say, with the possibility of using a .kr domain for Ink if possible. I would be submitting to both through normal channels and perhaps querying them before commiting whether they are in fact supplying the KR market. If you hear anything let us know.

Onya
Woz

[bill]

thanks Woz

Then there's the question of how one gets into Inktomi for Korean ;) I haven't tried PFI for Japanese pages as I've heard that they didn't help getting into goo, who is the only decent traffic driver of the Inktomi partners in Japan for me. However, this may be a good way to get Korean content in...

Again, LookSmart, like on MSN.com is providing the top results. Inktomi results are secondary and may be buried in the SERPS.

[Woz]

Korea:

I just did another test searching for "noodle", and the first 220 results are pure Looksmart. You can tell by the obvious "editor's description". Also these are almost 100% .com, a lot of the being citysearch listings for resaurants in the US.

But at soon as you hit result 221 you are in .kr territory.

So, because of the very heavy bias towards local domains in Korea, I would imagine the first step would be to set up a local domain/site and then go from there. The challenge is that the .kr domain requires a local presence which may be a stumbling block.

However, without the local domain you are really up against the wall trying to get into the serps unless you have a very unique search term target that is not already covered by local sites.

Of course there is the question of whether they are using current or old Ink and I am not sure how to gauge this. But that will have an impact on whether it would be worth submitting PFI at all.

Onya
Woz

[bill]

local domains in Korea

I'm not sure how this works in Korea, but .jp names require a local presence as well. Some registrars here have worked their name around this restriction by using their own offices as a local address thereby allowing virtually anybody to get one. If a similar system exists in Korea there may be a way to get one of these .kr names depending on the registrar you use.

[Woz]

I really have no other information about the restrictions of local domains at all.

Th workaround you mention in Japan would not work here in Australia as you are only allowed one domain "per registered legal entity" and the domain must be made up from only the letters that appear within that entity in the order in which they appear within that entity. Phew. If those sorts of restrictions apply also in Korea then that is a bigger, although not insurmountable, stumbling block.

Wish we had someone here who knew more about this.

Onya
Woz

[bill]

Those same restrictions apply to .co.jp names in Japan. There are all sorts of restrictions that would absolutely limit the domain owner to a Japanese national with a huge bank account ;) The top level .jp names are a different story, and are a lot more open

Like you, I have no clue about the Korean situation and wish we had some more experts to share with.

[seoboy]

from what i've learned re: local domains, japan is a bit easier than korea. i've seen local registrars (as bill mentions) who will "help" you get a .jp domain. i havent seen the same for korea, though it may exist. from what i understand, .jp is easier than .co.jp - .jp is general use, while .co.jp is really for corporations, etc.

re: ink PFI for both of these, i've tried it with submissions over a month ago. no luck. now, granted, ink is slow to update...but the pages for both languages are in US ink (and PT's SERP) but not showing up in either korea or japan. i guess its possible that the data transfer / updates are slower, but the point is that there's certainly no immediate results, as in the US.

as for filtering, i'm not so sure its DOMAIN related so much as ENCODING related. remember, most big companies in any country have .com's as their primary domains - so it doesnt make sense for .com's to be punished.

i've had no problem getting .com pages listed in korean engines in the past but of course the difficulty is in the translations...which is VERY time intensive and can be expensive. all my pages are in the native tongue, translated top-to-bottom by native speakers. that's the best way to go.

my knowledge of korea is decent, so if folks have specific questions i may be able to help out.

thanks for everyone's input.

i'd love to hear tips on the fastest way into the japanese market (outside of yahoo). sticky me if so inclined.

cheers,
seoboy

[bill]

re: local domains, japan is a bit easier than korea

From your explanation of the Japanese domains, I can tell that you have a clear understanding of this market. If you come across any of the helper .kr registrars tell us what the going rate is.

re: ink PFI

That mirrors my experiences with listings in goo and the Inktomi DB. I have some #1-5 listings in goo that definitely do not show up in MSN [search.msn.co.jp] or TOCC [tocc.co.jp]. It's good to hear more confirmation that PFI for Inktomi does not work in Asia locally.

...as for filtering, i'm not so sure its DOMAIN related so much as ENCODING related

If the domain situation in Korea is anything like it was in Japan until recently, a lot of companies would have gone for the cheaper .com alternatives. The encoding related filtering would make sense, but from experience in Japan I've seen that's not always the case. I've seen some cases where it looks like the local domain has added weight in the SERPs. However, that appears to be the exception rather than the rule. As time goes on, the domain has less influence on ranking (as it should).

translations...

You're on the right track with translations, and it is obvious you are serious about these markets. There simply is no alternative...you have to use native translators and if possible native copywriters.

...fastest way into the japanese market (outside of yahoo)

I'm sure you know about LookSmart in the Japanese market. They're still a directory here and take flat fees for a listing. LookSmart Japan does have a lot of deals with several of the top portals here, and will provide a quick entry for your site. Other than Yahoo, that's the only paid option that will be of any use to you.

Other than that, Google is really the best way to get into this market. Getting into Google Japan is just the same as getting into Google elsewhere...It helps to have Yahoo and DMOZ listings as well as links from relevant sites. I have noticed that the Add URL [google.co.jp] for Japanese is a lot more responsive than the plain old .com version (at least for Japanese pages). It won't hurt to submit your Japanese pages there instead of waiting for Googlebot to find you on its own.

[whats up skip]

Whatever you don't waste you money with submission to Looksmart!!!!!!

I paid for a submission to the Japanese Looksmart and it has been the biggest waste of advertising money.

I complained to their regional manager about the very low volume of the traffic and the very limited range of keywords they put into the URL description. Her feedback was to pay for more URLs. (I don't think so!!!)

Google kills Looksmart for traffic in Japan (by a factor of 15 to 20 times!!!!) and it has cost us nothing but a bit of hard work.

I have also tried to use inktomi to get into Goo and others. Apparently Goo uses the technology but not the submissions. (Another waste of money!!)

I have not tried Yahoo Japan and cannot get into DMOZ.