Forum Moderators: open
The Google update threads have exploded. As I’m writing this post the September thread has reached 370 posts. In all of these post the most valuable is the first one, which announces the update. The next 100 posts are me too post people. From 100 to 200 people are ”still seeing changes”. In all the last posts people are more or less happy with the results.
I stopped reading the Google update thread a long time ago because it is useless.
May I suggest that all future Google update threads are started and locked by a moderator.
We all now that there is a Google update every month so lets not make a fuss about it. It’s also no surprise that results are changing during the update. Of course some do better and some do worse.
Don’t get me wrong. There are some quality posts in the thread but there is just too much noise around them.
It’s nice to see so many people participating on Webmaster World but some self-discipline would be nice. Sometimes I think that people are more interested in increasing their personal post count than contributing with quality content to a quality forum.
This post may feel as a slap in the face to someone but that is the easiest way to get focus on a problem;)
Beside the Google update threads I truly believe that this is the greatest forum in the world, which is why I try to contribute to keep it that way.
Torben
Be sure of that fact.
All you comments in this thread are valuable. WebmasterWorld is a community for its members and ALL views are valuable.
Thank you.
Now, I'm still not sure why I was/am penalized but have made many changes based on what I discovered in the update and the other threads.
Those google update threads were my emotional salvation and provided insight for my site's partial redemption!
Now, I read the update threads sporatically, but ban them? If the bandwidth is too expensive that may be a reason, but you can always ignore the update threads and, if you can't ignore them, then you must be looking for some insight. No one can possibly read all the threads here (or if they do, they aren't doing any web work ;) so obviously we all ignore numerous threads/topics. We read what is of concern at the time.
Yes, self restraint would be good, but it may take a new member a while to figure that out since so many of the old threads are full of "me too's" and new members learn from what has gone before.
I can see where you are coming from, the google update threads are good door welcomers to webmasterworld, and i think some, possibly including myself at times, forget when we first found this place, and the topics and concerns being overwhelming most of the time.
Though their is still a problem with a thread of that size, duplication of instance, which can get a tad bit boring, but as i said above, i believe the update thread is valuable to members of webmasterworld.
We've put in the "one update thread" policy and have been enforcing it strictly. So far this month that means about 10 threads have been spliced onto the main one as new ones pop up all the time.
There are people who love those threads. The last 5 update threads are the all time top five read threads on WebmasterWorld representing over a million page views. The current thread has already passed 100k views in a little over a day. It will go on to become the top thread in WebmasterWorld history within a few days.
>bandwidth
With the multi-part post modification, people do skip to the last page of the thread regularly. Large threads don't use any more bandwidth than the same number of messages in multiple threads.
>mods
We've had this discussion almost monthly for a year Torben. I think they are talked out on the subject.
The update is very important for some people. They get to know whether they get a raise or a pay cut this month.
We have it down to one post now and we also start winding it down in a fews days and lock the thread. Members can pick and choose if they want to read it. I don't think we can or should do more than that - it's what some folks want to talk about - that's why we are here.
That Google update thread is the most popular topic on the net. Where else can you find the type of activity that takes place in that type of thread? People take vacations around update time so they can sit and watch the three databases! Just think if they started posting a new thread for each new thing they found, eek!
I'm going down the pub. ;)
How long before this thread becomes just another in the manner of the update thread? :)
lawman
People are trying to discover some changes in the algo (most of which do not exist at all - [webmasterworld.com...] ).
In a sense I see this thread as "brain storming" for good quality discussions for the upcoming month. Getting a sense of how everyone did gives an overall general idea of some of the tweaks made for the month. Yes, there is a lot of noise, but I don't think it is completely worthless either. I can understand from a mod point of view that it would be frustrating to have ignorant and disrespectful users, but I guess that is to be expected with any userbase as large as this one. People learn in different ways, and I will say that the update threads have definitely helped and encouraged my webmaster work, and are one of my favorite parts of WW.
Once the update is confirmed, perhaps a mod could post a message with a link to lazerrubbs faq on the just how the google update works.
I actually have read through this entire 400+ message thread looking for the real info. Its been time consuming but the info is there. If there were fewer questions like "will I get in this update?" the thread would be shorter and more meaningful. Asking everyone to read the faq before posting would help some. Though as Brett pointed out, many people just jump to the last page of the thread once this thing gets going.
I do get tired of wading through all of the woo-hoo and boo-hoo posts. I don't know what to do about it though because it is a release for many people.
It all comes back to knowing how to use the boards.
when you want information out of someone, they tend to talk a lot more when they're getting drunk rather than falling off the barstool.
by the way, i've started using yahoo's google directory as a comparison for how it used to be before this dance started because of the results being mixed into the main index.
cheers,
ps...give me too much info rather than too little any day :)
Please don't chop the 'social' threads, they have just as important a place as the 'technical' threads.
edit_g and Sinner_G, I'm confident that the interesting topics in the update thread will be returned to after it all settles down. rfgdxm1's comments, for example.
Any bets as to how many posts would be in a Google IPO thread:)?
If there is only one rankings are "up" post and one rankings are "down" post, maybe that's really less informative.
Of course there more or less has to be one "up" for every "down" in the index in general, so maybe these "me too" posts say more about the success or failure of techniques and their application than anything else.
It might be more intersting if posters said "This is what I changed last month, and my rankings went up/down."
I don't see how it's possible speculate on any possible changes in the algo without first knowing what if any changes have been made to the sites involved.
It feels like we've had the discussion weekly..:)
For what it's worth, I'm not a big fan of the update threads myself. For me, it's not so much the noise level that is problematic. It is the level of definitive conclusions about possible algo changes that get tossed out.
I often get the vision of hundreds of new members rushing to rework their site because someone declared that internal link text is dead 30 minutes into the update.
If I had my way, we would announce it, lock it, and then unlock it a week later so that our discussions would be focused on the final results.
However, I completely understand the emotional role the update threads play. Having been on both sides of that "pay raise vs. pay cut" fence, I know all to well the strong feelings of both excitement and despair that take over during the first few hours of an update.
So, in the big picture, I think that our current approach works pretty well. Those that need the opportunity to vent a little can do so without causing a major disruption to Forum 3. And those that don't care for the noise level can choose not to participate.
The only way I see the current system becoming a real problem, is if the style of posts that take place in the update threads begin to spill over into other areas. But I don't see that happening. Foo has been around for a very long time, and yet all the other forums still contain an abundance of quality content.
1. It appears many new sites with i would imagine PR3-PR5 have gone up in the Preliminary SERPs ... These people are the most vocal about if the results are good or bad. (preliminary this information may prove usless)
1B. Some sites which have been sitting in the index for along time (i assume PR4-PR6) have dropped. They are saying the index is full of spam (preliminary may be useless)
2. Large sites which were in the serps based on a massive amount of links pointing towards them "but not optimized for the term" have dropped in the serps. (hmmm shows who is in the SERPs based on bombs)
2A. Large sites generally don't say :) or :( no way to know how they actually did.
I for one still don't know if i will have more or less traffic this month? I have well over 1000 search phases to reach my site, With many other possible phases. Anyway's I want targeted traffic that converts. If i get more conversions its a good update for me.
3. On a few targeted keywords I have gained ground on the preliminary update over a few other sites. If the preliminary SERPs don't last this tells me I need to improve on keyword in textlink (assuming that is the difference between the old and the preliminary).
3A. if the preliminary results hold i need to check the competition and see what keywords they may have missed on the page.
Ya its alot of reading but it was worth it!
/added
oh not to forget the possible PR changes of incoming links from yahoo and dmoz. if that holds thats going to change the landscape abit.
>>hundreds of new members rushing to rework their site
Most of the time I just shake my head when I see all the people biting on a half baked theory because their sites got nuked.
I only see three things in there
1. my sites got a boost = I am the best.
2. my tricks got nuked = My life is over.
3. hysteria/panic = too many eggs in one basket
All valuable info is buried so fast that it never gets seen anyway.
Doesn't do anything for me but I admit it has a purpose. I also think everyone should read the whole thread before posting. This applies to all threads, of course, but it seems when a thread gets long people skip it.
Also, you can only say so much about any SEO topic until it becomes redundant. Google update threads become boring and redundant simply because they are. Unless there is a thread on some breaking SE news right off the presses, or a good old fashioned cat-fight (which will get locked if too personal, even though we all secretly love reading through them), there will only be so much left to say.
Lastly, concerning the current “I’m rich…I’m poor” Google thread in question; in my opinion knowing whether or not the majority of webmasters were in the same boat as me with any given update has been more useful and practical to me than any of the countless (and often conflicting) algo theories that can often times be counter-productive if taken too seriously.
After the first post, it may not be all that "useful", but the theories are sure interesting.
I think of it as more of a soap opera:
It really serves no purpose, but yet it can be entertaining to watch (and you always have that funny guilty feeling when you continue to watch it day after day, post after post) :)
Do you really want to ban the soap opera? ;) What purpose would it serve when you can just skip over it? :)
--
Rodney
There were complaints about noise posts before and some people were avoiding that forum, it was impossible to find anything. Now there's one for update, one for mid-update and people can choose to read or avoid, depending on whether they enjoy them or not.
Just like every family develops traditions, this is a community and those threads are one of our traditions, a comfortable place for those new to the board, Google or promotion to join in and become one of us.
There are experienced users and newbies alike, and all are treated with mutual respect, without any kind of a condescending attitude. For some, those threads are the first step in their growth toward expertise. For some, it's the only place they can feel comfortable coming out of lurking, and we welcome that. We want to know who our people are, seasoned pros and newbies alike. They're all important - each and every one has something they contribute to us all.
WG makes a valid point about the possibility of some picking up incorrect information, and we will need to address that. But that can happen with any threads or posts. On several occasions there have been questionably accurate posts - not in update threads - that were responded to as well as calling in other mods or members to correct and/or clarify. That's part of our continuing effort to maintain the integrity of the information here, and the effort is not always apparent or visible.
Keeping them all together, in spite of some irrelevancies, also has another positive side. In addition to avoiding repetitious threads cluttering the forum and the active list, we can go back and discern patterns we would have otherwise missed. We can also spot whatever confusion comes up repeatedly and use that to help us better meet the needs of newer members in the future.
There's a downside and an upside, but I've always personally been a strong advocate for those threads. Some of our best members have come in on the updates, and it's a place to get to know our new people as we welcome them into the group. The fact that the "welcoming committee" in those threads consists primarily of members themselves rather than mods is a graphic testimony to the strength of community that's been built and a demonstration of the fine quality of the membership we have here.
Just as we've always accommodated ourselves to growth, if there are refinements needed, we'll do it.
I would not be surprised if the logs showed a lot of Google IPs following that thread after an update. What better way to get feedback (and a few laughs) that a free flowing emotional thread.
I'm a newbie, and I'm not bothered by it simply because I didn't read it. I think of that thread as a wonderful spam filter.
I think thats a really good post Marcia.
I just get annoyed at all the "im the best" and "im in the pits" bits of the update thread. Because I have been here for nigh on 3 months now (aren't I a veteran...) and I feel that it isn't called for every time, I suppose I just bagged the whole thread as a waste.
I wasn't really talking about censorship (I can't speak for Torben) just constructive debate. If people feel that they are getting some useful information (or even some sort of release) out of the update thread- then why should I call it irrelevant, it is a subjective matter- and my opinion is mine, not everyone else's.
I'll keep not reading or participating in the update thread and participate in the threads which I think are useful. Have a good weekend. :)
I remember when a Google update would flood the "recent posts" list to the point where you could hardly find anything else. I'd bet almost half the Google forum threads had something to do with the update, so that whole forum was almost impossible to wade through...
Now that everything update is -- more or less -- kept spliced into one thread, it may or may not be a waste of bandwidth, but it doesn't get in my way so why begrudge anyone their fun?
Heck, there are even people who think that FOO is nothing but worthless posts, and that's a whole forum as opposed to one thread a month... but we're not shutting FOO down! (It's not their fault. They're just misguided, and obviously haven't spent enough time in FOO to understand...)
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Wait a minute: I just thought of a small problem: WHO is going to say what is interesting and relevant?
I was a lurker for a long time before posting.
As you probably know, it takes a reasonable amount of impulse to move from lurking to posting; that happens, even knowing that the board is as open as it can be, your ideas will be respected, extreme measures (deleting posts, locking threads) are only for extreme misconducts.
Now, tell the potential newcomers that their posts will be scrutinized, and if they are not considered interesting or relevant enough, they will be kindly asked to either learn more before posting or just to shut up.
This would make the board less clogged, but would it make it more useful?
This alone would be a reason to not limit any non-offending post.
Furthermore, about the thread in question: I read ALL the posts, and I am sure that I am not alone.
Is "me too" useless? I have seen weird thing happening to my rankings. One person pops up and says the same happened to him; then another one; and another... By then, the "me too"ers are not useless any more (they indicated a trend), at least to me. Of course, if the "me too" doesn´t apply to your case, that´s useless to you, but who knows what´s coming in the next dances?
And I consider that that long thread is far from being a "me too"er congregation. I see several people, from different niches, with different backgrounds, sharing different points of view about the same fact (the dance). To me, that will always be a potential well of knowledge.
"We call clear the thoughts that are as confused as ours".
Marcel Proust
Let's set up a voting booth to try and tabulate some basic stats.
A) Did your site go up or down in the listings for the recent google update?
--If down then:
* Was your site dropped entirely this update?
--If up then:
Was your site indexed/added for the first time this update?
B) Was your experience similiar on multiple sites that you own/operate?
--If yes then:
How many?
* 1-3
* 4-10
* 10-20
* more than 20
c) Have you every "violated" the standard policies (LinkFarming? Cloaking/Stealthing? Outbound links to PR 0 sites?)
d) Have you increased your number of inbound links within the last update or so?
--If yes then:
* Are they from "reliable" sources such as DMOZ/ODP, Yahoo!, CNN.com, etc.
--If no then:
* Are you listed in "reliable" sources already?
just my thought. I'd like to know the actual statistical cross-section of those who frequent WebbieWorld.
