Lost business potential on building websites

Is it too late to learn from the chaos and challenges?

[explorador]

Hi webmasters, I should have made TONS of dollars building websites, I earned decent money, but things were difficult because of local business/culture challenges, not by how hard it is to build websites or how good I was at it. I never dared to ask because of many factors: regional-cultural differences, and the difficulties of explaining accurately the situation to people from different countries were the most prominent.

Forensics? This is not a rant on how difficult some business is, I don't want to go back in time and I'm not interested on returning to building websites, but I do want to learn what I did wrong, or the lessons I missed along the way. Years ago I moved away from the industry and kept working for current clients and my own websites, found other areas refreshing, faster on ROI and easier to monetize. **This is heavily related to my region

The general panorama: in Guatemala most websites are ugly, slow, little information about the products and mostly no prices, the usual local concept is "don't post prices" because that's how competitors keep an eye on you, and "IF a client is interested: they will call"; there are lots of negative practices regardless of budget because big companies also fail on what's the right thing to do (I'm not wondering, I'm telling you: I've worked for big brands and companies). Many websites appear and disappear after 1 year or 2, many fall into the trap of statistics or "social media" and fail to understand their numbers mean nothing because the client is not getting informed, there is no conversions, and most of the times "community managers" are actually lying and grabbing their money (I've seen this literally). Online selling? MOST online stores end up on phone call based selling because their website fails at it, or the local culture wins over technology.

There is another side to the business: lots of companies and clients ripped off their money, false promises, weakened after someone charged them big bucks and didn't deliver, or cases of kidnapped domain names because "that's our property and that's how we keep our clients tied to us".

I got better at my job each year, and faster. Got clients via my own websites, word of mouth, and got to the point of telling them "nope, I'm full" (too much in my hands) and I had to reject job offers, clients, projects, etc. But while clients and work came to my hands, it was mostly a nightmare.

The local problems
Guatemala is famous for people being late, never on time, 10a.m. meeting? they get there 10:30 if they are your employees, 11a.m. if they are your clients, contracts and agreements mean nothing, they might tell you some project is urgent and they need it in 1 month, but the client is the one slowing the process taking 1 year. I had clients forcing 2 months projects over 2 years, and locally people STRONGLY believe "the client is always right", so they make you feel this, and get mad if you make them see they are slowing down the process. Contracts have no legal meaning unless they are "properly legalized with an attorney/lawyer", and when you tell them this is needed, clients flee, vanish. Trust me, the usual is "I want this: a,b,c,d... and 6 months later they tell you now I want z,x,q".

• Worked for local clients and companies (I'm not kidding when I say big brands) and 90% of times, I hated it.
  
• Worked for/with people from Germany and north America, it was a fluent efficient work experience.
  
• Most service providers lied, telling clients of absurd visitor statistics, or about supposedly successful projects that nobody was visiting/using.

To make matters worse, during my last years building websites, local clients moved to demanding getting all the work done, AND THEN they will pay you, I refused, because they wanted free credit and me risking the whole business, other providers would offer this without blinking, and most ended up loosing money because the client went bananas.

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"What am I doing wrong", I wondered
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I'm not perfect, but my question was wrong: it wasn't me, it was the region, the clients, the culture. Along the years I noticed people from other countries going nuts on how difficult local people are, ended up firing employees and closing their businesses. Tried discussing this with people I know in similar work fields (as business owners), and the response was "you are doing it wrong", but that was a lie, as a few months later they went out of business, I DIDN'T. Few were honest enough to say they were experiencing the same challenges, and using their own money to support their projects and then, doing efforts to get the clients to pay (most of the times month by month, free credit, no interests).

My response: I moved away from building websites. I told new clients "I have my hands full", or "I'm not interested, most people mean bad business". Even noticed being rude meant some clients showed more interest (there is psychology about this regarding "conquered towns and cultures" where people are actually mean to you if you are kind because they think you are weak, but if you are rude they "try to appear as if they respected you" because they come from a background of slavery or being submitted/dominated. I didn't have a personal mission with this, it's business, so I moved to do other stuff working for days or weeks (never more than a month) and got paid quickly doing other stuff. Soon I had a new way or earning money FAST(ER), and moved to TANGIBLES.

You will RARELY find a local company building websites that exists beyond 2 years, 1 year tops. And the ones that stayed have long stories of ripped off clients and kidnapped domains. It's too late to go back, but it's never too late to learn about this. Yes, my websites still have impact and sometimes I get asked about doing work, I mostly reject those opportunities.

Feel free to ask questions, or sharing experiences.

[Kendo]

It doesn't matter how much business that you do or how many clients you have, because all of that is nothing if you don't get paid. Getting paid is most important because the time wasted on a non-payer can mean a good client lost elsewhere.

[explorador]

For some time I earned very good (and, easy?) money doing PSD to HTML+CSS for a bank and it's departments, we would coordinate and agree on the designs, and then I would need just a few days to deliver the final work (cross browser compatible, those were diff days). BUT, while there were lots of clients interested on this, it was impossible to engage on work, as they would say "this is the final design" and after the html+css was made, they would send modifications or new designs, as if it was as simple as hitting CTRL+P (for printing), their inability to understand the processes was impressive.

Kendo: It doesn't matter how much business that you do or how many clients you have, because all of that is nothing if you don't get paid. Getting paid is most important because the time wasted on a non-payer can mean a good client lost elsewhere.

Exactly. Sadly the cultural factor comes as something impossible to ignore here, making some areas of work almost impossible.

[Kendo]

"this is the final design" and after the html+css was made, they would send modifications or new designs

This is most difficult to deal with and most difficult to get paid in full, regardless of working for an ad agency or company, large or small. I now service only one client and everything else is inhouse projects.

[tangor]

Sadly, most folks who want to hire someone to do a website actually do not have real world contractor/sub-contractor experience or the concept of work orders, time lines, or payment on performance.

Any initial meeting I had with folks seeking my services ran into that "brick wall" and if they didn't understand those requirements we parted ... after I got my original consulting fee in hand.

Else they were shown the door ... and had to move rather swiftly as I slammed it shut.

[anallawalla]

Yes, lots to learn from such experiences, but no one-size-fits-all solutions. Aroung 1997 I decided to stop building websites for small businesses. One was because I wrote a proposal so well that the client told me that his son could build this for free and would not need me. The second was because I allowed the client to keep asking for design changes when different people in their management looked at the design. I added an extra $1000 and they paid it reluctantly. In later years, I saw how professional designers handled such situations, but once burnt, twice shy.

The point by Tangor is quite important - most small business clients don't know what they need and how to order a website. They might know the functionality they want, but won't realise the effort needed (and cost) to deliver it. The learning there is that the designer should explain, in writing, the rules of engagement and when additional billing will be introduced.

[Kendo]

the client told me that his son could build this for free

Lost count of how many times that I have heard this. If they do not know the difference, best to move on because that is the wrong footing to start any new project.

[tangor]

Every time I heard that from a client I replied:

"Send me their resume. Always looking for good talent, and they get paid, too!"

You'd be surprised how quickly those airholes deflated. :)

REALITY: There are serious players and wannabes. In biz you want the serious, those who know it takes money to make money and professionalism comes with a sticker price AND you don't treat the hired help from the bottom of a boot.

The WORLD is constantly changing. ECONOMICS has never changed. Two different paradigms. Webmastering is ECONOMICS, blessed with fun stuff like passion, commerce, and knowledge ... and a few bucks along the way for those so inclined.

But is never has been free. There's toil, trouble, work and bubble, and once past the Shakespeare you have advertising, marketing, viral, corporations, and politics ... and that's just getting started.

They: "Build me a website for a dollar so I can make millions..."
Me: "Pay me a million and I'll make you a billionaire..."

Funny, nobody ever took me up on that. :)

[explorador]

As said, I moved away from this, only keeping few active (nice to work with) clients, and taking care of my personal projects (websites). Locally I felt curious on how others were doing as they supposedly knew their way around these difficulties, but at least locally I discovered most of them (if not all) were lying, as they were facing the same or worse problems and closed their business YEARS before I moved away from this. Yet, my curiosity remained regarding people from other countries.

Surprisingly, as I moved away naturally irritated by the conflicts, some things improved. Why? how? still shocks me. The following might apply locally due to cultural stuff.

I refused to take new projects genuinely showing zero interest. This had some interesting impact as some clients would say ok bye, but others would be surprised as I did not care about anything they said, or perhaps it was a inverse reaction from them because their "so great idea", and their "so successful business" meant nothing to me during their attempt to get my interest, not to forget what they were trying to pay me didn't even make me blink.

Kendo: this is most difficult to deal with and most difficult to get paid in full

I got to the point of telling clients during first meetings "ok, no... nope, I won't take this project, you are not really serious about this. In fact I would reject insistence to meet, as I had no interest on wasting time just to hear ideas for free, so I also told them time not paid couldn't compete with what I was already doing (work). At first I tried to apply Japanese principles to the meetings, then I just said no, unless they came to me under my conditions (just for the meeting).

tangor: Else they were shown the door ... and had to move rather swiftly as I slammed it shut.

Same. Here, locally, clients would often hit you with "we are big, doing great, prove to us you can deal with our so magical and great project", and while I was gentle, ended being brutally honest, like "I never heard from you". And if they were a big company, with no bad intention and just being honest I would reply: your idea lacks substance and specifics (and it was true). I guess there is a lot of space to discuss how big companies often hire someone for really terrible projects (terrible ideas).

@anallawalla, yes, same here. The problem I noticed is, locally, despite explaining additional stuff meant extra money, or extra time, they just tried to apply pressure. Were I live it's quite the usual that they hire you, and then think you work "for them", so it's not a business to business relationship, they act as if you were their employee: not good!.

anallawalla: the client told me that his son could build this for free

Had a few of those, I was shocked, then felt confident enough to ask them "then why isn't he doing this? for free? or for cheap? or -then why did you call me?-".

Proposals... agreements... "how much do you charge for X?", that's a lot of wasted time. During my final stages doing such work I would refuse to put stuff on paper, not because of what it meant, but because it was wasted time and the client would not honor such agreements and proposals anyway. So my final attitude was "hey, listen, let's stop wasting time on paper, proposals, and me putting lots of stuff on a contract, just tell me straight up: what's your budget?", they would be reluctant to answer, but when they did, most cases it was such a low budget and insane expectations, I would just say "oh no... sorry". The trick is most times clients make you dance without even playing any music, so I would just demand specifics from them (specially budget), and then I would decide is dancing was a good idea.

Besides cultural issues, I found somewhere someone saying something like this: people are not used to digital work, everything to them looks so easy on your hands they don't understand how 5 minutes or 2 days is worth so much money, and so, they underestimate it.

[anallawalla]

Some of those disappointing prospects probably take pride in getting something for nothing. They might get a few designers to pitch a new website, reject all and then tell their son or nephew to make the site, taking the best ideas from all the pitches.

[explorador]

anallawalla: Some of those disappointing prospects probably take pride in getting something for nothing. They might get a few designers to pitch a new website, reject all and then tell their son or nephew to make the site, taking the best ideas from all the pitches.

An ex associate convinced me to meet with this business owner from the US (living here), and it was a nightmare. The lady spent hours being a "host" showing me her house, the new area (under construction, with a lot of unnoticed mistakes by the contractors), and then out of desperation I insisted on talking the specifics of our meeting.

She wanted me to "pitch" (she said) a proposal. I was confused, asked for information and she told me "In the US it's common for us to invite designers and get them to work on proposals, and the best one wins". -Wins what?- us, as clients. I just said "I don't work for free". I'm pretty sure it wasn't what I said, but how I said it that made her stutter and turned into an extra nice person. I then said I was not willing to waste my time and left.

A lot of business owners think their are the last soda in the desert. What a waste of time. That's why I became so direct and blunt about this.

[tangor]

A lot of business owners think their are the last soda in the desert. What a waste of time. That's why I became so direct and blunt about this.

For those folks I remind them they came looking for me, not the other way around.

[Kendo]

Some of those disappointing prospects probably take pride in getting something for nothing. They might get a few designers to pitch a new website, reject all and then tell their son or nephew to make the site, taking the best ideas from all the pitches.

This is talent that many seem to develop and consider good business tactics... getting something for nothing.

[explorador]

tangor: For those folks I remind them they came looking for me, not the other way around.

Sometimes I do this exactly, and sometimes I even hint they can brag all they want about their business but... "I never heard about them, but they did hear about me", so let's keep things in order.

Kendo: This is talent that many seem to develop and consider good business tactics... getting something for nothing.

Been there, people telling me they are the best thing ever, so I suppose to send them a pitch for free so they can choose among the competitors, and this free work is mean to "win them" as clients, ha, what a joke.

[Sgt_Kickaxe]

Without people having disposable income to make it worthwhile, it doesn't matter how amazing a website is. Few will advertise on it, or buy from it.

Economy first.

[nickZ]

Your Guatemala experience is not much different from any other 3rd World country, more so also so called 1 rst World clients like to drag along. People abusing I found more in 1rst World clients. Cada cabeza un mundo or each head hold its own world. There are professionals in all worlds.

Anyway instead of only building websites we branched out. OK Corona hit us too, better said our clients changed their mood from yeah to nay. Publicity is the name of the game. Take a hit, learn and keep going.

[tangor]

What we have learned, chaos or not, is that competing with hosts offering near unlimited resource WP plug and play sites for $2.95/month is really kind of hard to compete against! If that level of site is all the client (potential or not) requires, you got NOTHING that will make them excited for what a REAL CODER can do.

^{(Who actually charges reasonable rates for their labor, knowledge, and experience.)}

[nickZ]

It is your job to let them know.

you got NOTHING that will make them excited for what a REAL CODER can do.

Sites which are created on the fly don't do too well.

[explorador]

Also, those "companies" selling stuff for pennies often get people used to it, and then clients complain because they are actually getting what they paid for: almost nothing. Or nothing at all.

[tangor]

^^^ Complete agreement. That's why I never gave up my "day job" or much longer career as a professional musician. In either one of those fields I will always get paid what my unique services are worth. :)

THAT SAID, there are still serious coding jobs out there, but you become part of a larger organization and no longer are the central focus/creator that started all this wonderful web stuff we do (or used to do)!

[explorador]

Some people here offered cheap prices, but the trick is domain kidnapping: they were kind enough to offer "full service" registering the domains for the clients, and so if the brand took off, or whatever, they would just refuse to let go, or charge money for that.

Others jumped to cheap services via "their niece", as it didn't matter if you were charging US$100 or US$500 per year, they would say "come on, that's too much, you can get your domain for X and hosting for Z", it's wrong I know, but they had some effect on some people, and no, they were not able to build their sites for them even being family or having their uncles offering money to do so, they were just unwanted noise.

Lastly, but doesn't mean that I agree... at times depending the case, it was worth it to offer a low price service but secure a yearly payment for hosting. This meant very little to zero work every year, but effective residual income.

Also, very far from the original post... lots of clients just have terrible ideas, it's so insane, it really make sense to pay only US$2.55 because that's what their ideas and projects are worth, regardless of whatever website we build for them.

[explorador]

tangor:
^^^ Complete agreement. That's why I never gave up my "day job" or much longer career as a professional musician. In either one of those fields I will always get paid what my unique services are worth. :)

THAT SAID, there are still serious coding jobs out there, but you become part of a larger organization and no longer are the central focus/creator that started all this wonderful web stuff we do (or used to do)!

I relate this to "healthy work/life style", as many times working for someone might imply leaving aside your passion(s), or doing what you love doing (including coding) behind. Many people who let's say... love coding or designing, end up hating it after working too much for clients, that's why I always advice on having personal projects.

[tangor]

All boils down to what one can stomach.

Sold off my "web" stuff (production company) a few years back. Still dabble with a hobby site that started it all and still enjoy that. Should be retired, but dang it, I still love this --- and this site, too.