The social challenges of being a developer

Wait, nah!, you are too old and don't look like a developer

[explorador]

Hi there, interesting piece of topic here. I started coding around 1996, have seen a lot of things going on.

Years ago on a big company they needed something and hired a developer/designer. The guy was young but shaved head, tattoos, lots of hanging stuff on his arms, sport shoes and childish behavior on the meetings. Dude couldn't make half of what he offered and so the company workers had to compensate, it was a mess. But the guy was considered a successful coder and designer. You can say that was a successful personal marketing example, but yes he was a failure. Anyway somehow the administrative staff was not just impressed by his work, but also unable to understand he couldn't do what he offered, still... to them it was a success (it wasn't, really).

I will not forget that meeting, ever.

Over the following years while doing diff types of work on other places, I started noticing something interesting on meetings. They would need a developer and people like him would get the job. They had very active twitter, instagram and FB accounts and the look of a rebel, they would all talk in ways like "well, like, it's like... cause... you know!?" not to mention many of them smoking pot (seriously). Somehow this became the image of coders on most clients. I even noticed how some clients reacted to suit and ties or formal adults saying "oh... well, he doesn't look like a coder to me", yes, in many circles I noticed in order to be taken seriously as a coder: you must have a look and behavior, not to mention the age, older folks would get ignored.

Sure, you can say a professional coder lives by references, worth of mouth, etc. But I don't think that's an effective reality anymore. The roles of coders in companies changed so much they walk in the building and never leave, smoke, use weird clothing and suddenly the looks of them are kind of upside down. The industry in my area has created and embraced the archetype of a coder:

- someone who has no life, kinda like no friends at all (but types a lot on the smartphone)
- someone who somehow has time to feed all his social media accounts
- someone who consumes insane amounts of coffee
- tattoos are common, and smoking or VAPING
- shorts instead of pants

A total mess.

Yes, again you can be a super coder but even so many local companies won't even hire you. WebmasterWorld? what's that? you don't exist on twitter so you don't exist. Or the amount of selfies on your accounts is too low to be considered relevant. You can't choose the clients, they often choose you.

I'm not fully active in this market anymore because A creates B and B creates or feeds A, meaning working as a developer in my region TODAY is dirty, ugly and underpaid, so I moved on but I'm still surprised by this social thing happening. I wouldn't be posting about this if it wasn't by surprising comments regarding other people work and image as "they don't look like developers, that one does", me looks around: a clown.

Effectiveness is often underestimated, and many times not even inspected.

[LifeinAsia]

Interesting observations. I'll agree that in many cases (not just coding, but many other professions) from beats function for a lot of people.

One problem that I see is that too many people are too influenced by what other people think. Because they don't have a strong identity of who they are themselves, they are easily influenced by the next person/fad/shiny object that comes around.

Not just talking politics (which is incredibly obvious these days), but definitely in business as well. The sense of strong identity applies equally well for a business (or organization) as it does for individuals. How many times have we seen new logos unveiled that are hideous and even get scorned by the public? All because upper management was told what a great design it was (or how great the designer is).

[tangor]

More than anything is the change in work ethics ... due to university level education not doing what it was established to do ...

We live in interesting times where you get a trophy just for participating, and a hug, too, if you have a lot of followers on twitter or facebook.

What is not being taught is the hard facts of life and economics and everything ... and that adds up to more than "42".

As upper management ages out, replaced by this new breed of "personalities and feelings" the business world is going to change quite a bit. Those new folks who eventually grow up to recognize REAL BUSINESS principles will eventually succeed, thosse who do not will do a great deal of harm before booted out for failing to deliver.

Interesting times!

[Marshall]

Like fer sur, ya know!? As a business owner I have seen this trend for many, many years. Our society has become socially awkward and truly ignorant of interpersonal relations. as @explorador pointed out, they cannot even complete a sentence. And heaven help them if the use the shift key when typing. A "friend" is a tick box on Facebook. A buddy is a virtual character you follow around on your phone. And everyone seems to think the only form of communication is what you post on social networking. Our educational system (especially in the US) has become a joke and as managers become younger, all of these shortcomings are becoming the acceptable standard. That is not to say I am defining anyone's ability by their appearance, I am not. I have seem idiots across the spectrum. But it is sad that true talent is overlooked and for what, something that is (presumed) flashier?

Sorry if this seems like a rant. It really is based on personal observations.

[tangor]

Sad thing is ordinary English is difficult to use in these days of too many triggers and other foofarah.

One fellow (WHO CALLED ME IN TO SOLVE A PROBLEM WITH THEIR ADVERTISING AND RESULTS) got upset when I "triggered" someone by accident. I listened to the rant for about 5 seconds ... reached across the boardroom table, picked up my presentation (and my outreach to 1.5 million potential local eyeballs) and said:

"Good luck and goodbye."

A week later another contact attempt was made, which I politely declined, unless they paid 6 times my original number and an assurance that I would not see, much less interact with, the idiot.

While they could and would pay the difference, the latter part was impossible: "He's the company president!"

"Yes, I know. So sorry for you. Good luck ... and Goodbye!"

As these type of thin-skinned events increased over the years I finally had enough, sold my company and retired, keeping just a few loyal and deserving clients of 20 years or more on a consultancy basis.

Chalk this up to an adventure of "The social challenges of being a developer".

[Kendo]

Maybe look at the person who hired them and you may see the answer.

Also, not many will hire people that they cannot look down upon.

[buckworks]

Also, not many will hire people that they cannot look down upon.

That's not exactly a reliable recipe for success ...

[tangor]

@buckworks .... this is not about reliable, or even success. It is touchy feelie stuff. ")

[explorador]

LifeinAsia: One problem that I see is that too many people are too influenced by what other people think

Yes, it seems suddenly the developer archetype became a branded image of looks and behavior (not results or efficiency related). It's like people expect a wizard looking like a wizard in order to do some magic (that will never take place). What I can say regarding the recent years are horror tales of people replacing developers with clowns never to get the desired result, and only to end up replacing clown after clown (because they don't seem to learn the lesson).

Age hits everyone, but the looks, the image, the "branding" of the profession makes no sense, is hitting developers and also hitting the clients. This topic is kinda related to the many complaints and monologues on YT from experienced developers tired of absurd tests to get hired.

I read all the comments and I also agree with every single word posted here. Yet I still don't know what to make out of this. I understand what @tangor shared as a common result of frustrated interactions, I really do (I've been there too) but I wonder what to do, getting out of the way doesn't seem like the best approach (don't get me wrong, I understand the story and as stated I have been there) but clients being stupid is not just something I have to deal with, it's also not my fault.

What's harder? a clown having to learn and actually do some good work (that they can't actually do)? or an experienced developer faking the looks and behavior for a while and do the work they can actually do? the later sounds easier... yet I didn't try that. I have to confess seriousness was not only expected but also demanded when I was younger, today it seems people are ok with informality. I just have to say... need to! ha ha, to me it seems everything started when people talked about blogs instead of websites.

I'm still curious on what have some developers done about this, how they adapted (if ever). On my end... I didn't, just moved away from that market keeping my websites and doing other kinds of work. Lots of the problems went away while I keep a huge bag of experience on my back (today mostly unused). This topic hits me with a bit of nostalgia because lately had to do some tweaking here and there and it's true: I love being a developer, a webmaster, sadly the market is way too toxic and problematic. For a while I just got the strong sensation of coming back to it, but just picturing all the clowns made that desire fade away.

[Essex_boy]

That is not to say I am defining anyone's ability by their appearance - In 2003 I nearly threw out a tramp looking geezer from office. I later found out he was a self made millionaire.

[piatkow]

That is not to say I am defining anyone's ability by their appearance - In 2003 I nearly threw out a tramp looking geezer from office. I later found out he was a self made millionaire.

Sounds like the guy who has been hanging round Downing Street recently.

In most jobs is little "theatre" is necessary. I attribute my success in the days when I used to QA database designs to my beard and long hair. It was far easier to persuade people to follow the corporate line if you didn't look like a corporate clone. Of course I knew that the corporate line was the best direction to go in because I had written most of it.

[tangor]

These days it is all about distancing in "social".

Fortunately cubicles are "six foot", or you telecommute in your pajamas.

Dang little "social" left.

</dark humor>

[explorador]

After swimming on diff conversations about this, it's getting worse, or so it seems locally.

The amount of young people working on Wordpress is less and less, and so people making noise hiring WP workers. Instead the amount of people hiring people to "position products and services online" is absurd in my area, but they are focused on FB and Tik Tok, now they don't talk about skills, they talk about followers more than ever. That thing is quite dirty because they (the whatever believers) think, if this guy could reach X place on the web, he can do the same with my company and products but... worse: they expect people at some point to mix their personal status and fame with their products.

On the other hand, conversations and forums with developers behind backend sounds now all the same: a whole bunch of serial divorcees with drinking problems, terrible social life and common gaming issues, not to mention lots of people in huge debt.


Sure all hat brings social challenges being a developer, sure dealing with clients, sure dealing with companies hiring you, and mostly sure dealing with your coworkers and the reflection fo their lives in their work.


This was mostly interesting:This year there was a thread on a very famous visited local forum, a guy wanting to hire a mobile app developer, as a bonus he explained the usual and posted the bad experiences he had (in short) and so he wanted people to give him advice on what company to hire, or what developer to look for (but focused on companies). Only a few gave advice on company A or company B.

Then I decided to post and kinda vented in good fun (no harm intended) and told him that pretty much he experienced failure after failure hiring freelancers, independent developers, probably a nice pattern of magic and non-delivering-anything after talking about big words on strategies. Probably a bad set of companies who failed to deliver and so I mentioned one after one... companies that "portray themselves as big winners" and then posted their portfolio... they all share in common a set of failed apps, bugs, people trowing insults on Google play on how bad their apps are, also how many of their so called apps are still working today. It was like a portfolio of 25 in average but 0 to 2 apps on the market or appstore... and not-working at all.

I wasn't mad, just sharing data, and then after sharing this I said "3, 2...1, here they come, the whole bunch of coffee, alcohol and drug addicts who attend work in crocs and never deliver, only to be replaced by someone else in an average of 2 to 6 months", and... said "I don't want to sound bad but that's what I have experienced with developers, and what some places where I worked experienced too... failure after failure, no bad intention here".

Then one by one new posts came confirming their bad experiences, exactly as I described them. When you look back you might say "where are the social challenges at developer level?" well... again, if you as a developer don't fit that profile... you don't get hired. It's the same as {insert name here}, she was hiring people for X job at the company I was working for years ago and the profile she was looking for had little to do with skills, she had a clear mindset of "guys, married, with kids, in debt", that was around 2007 and I will never forget how in some countries and companies... people actually seek someone fitting specific (social) profiles, sometimes having nothing to do with the required skills. Why? that's evident, describing it... is a long story... if you don't see it then telling it would be like talking to someone about ghosts... when they have never seen one, but when you actually did, you know. Some older people (and books) explain it better than I do: it has more to do with how much you can be exploited and slaved rather than your skills.

As explained on other posts I walked away from such environments and... I don't regret it, I'm not looking back. Today I sometimes check online or some ads and you will RARELY... if ever... find a job application or hiring for developers. It's a rare thing.

[explorador]

So I kind of smile when I read "social distancing" and there is a relation with developers. Social what? most don't have a social life, or life at all (check again... the amount, locally, of divorcees living alone paying debts and having drinking problems) , and the other side of social distances... it's how companies started destroying spaces and creating "open offices", meaning lots of people in the same place, crowded...

There was a place where I used to work and had my own office, you would find other groups from 2, 10 and 15 on the same floor. Later they got 62 people in there... so crowded (a building level) the insurance companies didn't want to cover the building. Now... with contagious stuff... I don't want to know how they are getting work done.

The last bit means it must be terrible there, OR... they are sending people (locally) home to work with webcam apps and desktop recording with timers, it's terrible.

[explorador]

Added (couldn't edit the previous post): made clear the local things in my region, perhaps it's the same where you live, or not. Regarding what's described on the last message, I not only took distance from the profession and working social environment, but also took distance from friends and coworkers in that area. Why? the characteristics are not general but the pattern is strong... too much divorcees, huge debt, living along, addiction, depression, etc. Sucks to read that on forums and coming from clients, it sucks more to see it touches people you know, and sorry... it's not healthy to be surrounded by that.

[engine]

I've known my share of devs that preferred to be loners, with some working though the night. It's not surprising that they also prefer to shun social media, too.
I'm sure they have social distancing down to a T.

[Mark_A]

I once interviewed for a web services sales job, the director asked me my age, you aren't allowed to discriminate on age in the UK so I was a little surprised, anyhow, I am 50 I said, only to be told the department age was 20 and they doubted I could fit in. Later when apparently trying to see how I might fit they asked me what my star sign was!? I kid you not!

[explorador]

@Mark_A, sometimes I would have more respect for people who won't call you/me, instead of calling, and having the interview only to be told -no- whatever you answer. The trick is simple and some devs use it, "what did you use?" -JAVA- "oh no wonder it's so slow"m the thing is it doesn't matter what you answer, it's a trick, if you answer PHP they say the same, you should have use "whatever". A lot of people do this while dating and a lot of people do it while hiring, what you answer... doesn't matter. You won't ever know if this was legit unless you work there and witness what happens, or if you have any way to know from someone inside.

In my country there are laws forbidding age discrimination, however they are badly written, and you will constantly see ads stating "30 years tops" or "25". What's funny is sometimes they demand the impossible of someone so young, impossible unless you started university studies when you were 15 years old.

There is this university in my country where whenever they put an ad for hiring, the first thing they did was classify the papers and put "everything from X university" on a box. Those WILL NEVER GET READ, it's a discrimination policy so it doesn't matter if you have golden starts, if you graduated from that one, your resume would not get read. You could send pictures of dead animals inside... they would never know. Oh, except they remove the folders and reuse them. I know this for a fact, my wife works at that university, it was until this 2020 that the lady running that dept got fired (it was about time).

[Mark_A]

@explorador it sounds as if your age discrimination laws could do with rewriting. Even in UK/GB, where the wording is quite specific, age discrimination is still rife in employment. On CVs, research has shown that your CV has about 10 seconds to have an impact, if by ten seconds the reader is not yet interested it goes in the No/Maybe pile which means it does not get read further and you don't get invited to interview.

Actually I think this 10 second rule could also apply to web pages, sometimes there is so much rubbish at the top of pages the actual page content is mainly below screen. On some this is true to a massive extent such that the screen contents hardly change on loading what should be a new page.

[explorador]

@Mark_A, yes, but as said, when you know the people inside and they tell you themselves about their rules of discrimination clear as water, then interpretations are out.

There are social challenges being a developer, part of the changing "cultures", but also diff countries have their own sets of social challenges (regardless of the profession), including age or the region where you live.