Forum Moderators: LifeinAsia
Like i mentioned before I have not been compensated for my increase in duties, especially considering the last person to fill the position was not even performing server administration. I have again in the last year and half been told that my promotion to the next level of positions for the third time has been denied by upper management. What I am currently working on is creating a website to promote myself to help in getting a job somewhere else, or possibly some work on the side to help supplement things now.
What I really want advice on is, when I have talked to friends in the IT sector and told them about the content manager utility that I developed, and the first thing out of their mouth besides "oh wow" is "I know of companies that would love to have that". So I can't see taking the source and just killing the stuff the reflects or refers to the college. But the utility was a proof of concept, and I think I could create a version of the utility that could be used by a variety of business, even customized to each business by choosing different content snap-ins. The only way it would be the same to what I developed at the college is that both would be web based, use html forms embedded in a dynamic language (college is asp, my biz solution possibly php or asp not sure which yet), a database backend. The biz solution would also use a xml backend for some of the data that wouldn't be stored in the database, or instead of a database.
So what do you think, is it safe for me to develop this or would I risk intellectual property rights? The code that we used in creating the utility for the college was all simple database inserts, vbscript checks, and simple scripts based off of examples from various tutorial web sites. Everything I learned was through reading and purchasing books, sometimes with my own money, sometimes with the college's money, but no special trainings or consultants brought in to help out.
I know it was a long winded post, but any advice or help I would appreciate. I really don't know what to do, but at the same time I don't want to pass up the opportunity to make some extra money or even be able to go out on my own with my own business.
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grafix
Perhaps others can provide better advice?
In any case, good luck.
But I wouldn't be worried about taking your code. It worked for Marc Andreesen, right? He was a student as well at the time.
My advice, make a Billion dollars, then worry about the lawsuit.
This is the first time I've worked in the educational sector, and have been there for 3 years. Before this job I was with a company for about 8 months doing web design, when I got the offer with the college. So this is all kind of new to me. I would like to get a job doing consultant work, where I could work from home most of the time, and do a little traveling, but those kind of jobs just don't exist in my area. If they do exist, there aren't any openings.
I just wasn't sure how they might view this, if they even found out about it, since the idea would be similar. Though now the college administrators have heard the new internet buzzword, and like any administrator that doesn't understand technology, they think they have to have it. So now they are talking with a consultant firm, to develop a web portal that would basically replace what I've been creating for the past year. And they do this without talking to me, of course. I just hate to see the idea get discarded. I didn't sign a non-disclosure, or any kind of secrecy agreement, and I'm surely not getting compensated for it. So I think I will develop this, and try and market it on a web site and see how much interest I get in it.
Thanks for your posts.
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grafix
At this point, they clearly have rights to that software. You were employed by them, did it during your hours of employment and on their equipment. It is quite clear. But, they don't have to enforce those rights and probably don't care to. Go to your supervisor and make your case and ask for permission and a waiver. If you do it right, I think you are likely to be able to get a simple waiver.
In any case, if you go off and just attempt to gain commercial advantage from the software, you are, in effect, stealing their software. (Of course, it is done all the time and, I know from personal experience, very difficult and costly to fight. I am now pursuing a much more blatant case of software theft by a former client.)
It is most likely that the college's rights to the software and the intellectual property rights issue is not the most significant issue you face.
The big issue you face is this: It ain't so easy to do what you are talking about! It is frequently dreamed of and VERY infrequenty realized. The software is, at this point, a custom app. It will not be useful without modification for the first few customers you find. A software application, with the support utilities, options and flexibility to be implemented for many clients is, at least, an order of magnitude more expensive to develop than the first "proof of concept" version that works in the context of one client's particularities. Figure have to do about as much work as you have already done for your second installl. And, figure that you will have to spend ten times as much to produce a product that can be installed for future clients without significant customization. You are considering starting a business. Before wasting your time and money, make sure you are ready to do it. If you go at it half-assed you will spend more than you earn. Also, are you ready for the sales effort involved. That there are people out there who might find your product useful has bearing on your ability to find them.
Take it from somebody with a couple of dozen similar great ideas that have never made any money. Ideas are cheap. Ideas are easy. They are all over the place. 10 great ideas and three dollars still won't buy you a Venti Latte at Starbucks. The test is taking that idea to market and actually producing successful customers and earning revenue...
BTW, korkus. It is very different legally taking software from one project and using it for another project when you are a consultant. In that case, unless there is a contract stating otherwise, your product is yours. But, the case is very different when you are an employee or in an explicit "work for hire" situation. In those cases, the product is the legal right of the employer (or client under an explicit "work for hire" contract). If you customize a product owned by another, then it is a "derived work" and you do not own it. If I steal your car and change the tires, that does not make the car belong to me...
We are talking about content management. I create those for every site I do. They are very easy and we are talking about a day to code atleast in asp and xml. If they were writing an application that was a product that the company was selling and I took that then yes I would be in some hot water, but something as generic as content management really is a nonissue IMHO.
It is about ideas and intellectual property. Yes the college owns the software, but it is not patented. Recreate the software customized for a customer on your own time and I think there will be no problem. Who is to say that it wasn't developed by grafix before grafix did it at the college.
[edited by: korkus2000 at 11:05 pm (utc) on Aug. 10, 2002]
But if you steal my car, change the tires, put a different paint job on it, throw in some tacky relaxation beads on the chairs, put a pine scented smelly thing hanging from the rear view mirror, throw some dingly balls all along the top of the windshield, put neon lights under the undercarrage, lower the suspension, attach a noisey muffler thingy to give it that "HUMM", tint the windows, and leave a salmon fillet in the trunk for a month. I WONT WANT IT BACK !
Hope that helps......
;)
Thor
And software is subject to a legal concept called "derived works". We are in the realm of copyright law. It has nothing to do with patents.
And, actually, we are not talking about web content either. It is true that we are talking about a software application that manages web content, but that is irrelevant. However, I believe "derived works" applies to web content too.
Please, don't get me wrong. I am not moralizing or anything. But this is a clear matter of fact. I have been through all these issues in a number of legal situations and know of what I speak.
To make it clear, consider two approaches Grafix might decide to take, should he choose to pursue this software product.
First approach (the approach, I think, we have been discussing): He copies the software code (written in, say, php or asp) he developed as an employee (which, therefore, is the property of the school) onto a floppy disk, quits his job, loads the code onto his home machine, modifies the code like a mad man (to make the point clear because it is not a matter of how much he modifies the code, it is a matter of that he began with somebody elses property) and claims ownership. That is clearly theft of intellectual property and a violation of the the school's implicit copyright because it is a derived work. [ BTW, IMPLICIT copyright is an important concept here also. Basically, one does not necessarily need to "file" a copyright or anything - your copyright to original material is automatic unless nulified by particular activities. ] In the same way, if I copied your web site, pasted it into my text editor, changed it alot and presented it as my own on my web site without your permission, that is theft of your intellectual property in general because it is copyrighted material in particular. It doesn't really matter how much I modified the software. It is a derived work because I started with your copyrighted material.
Second Approach: He copies no code or text, quits his job, but, remembers what he learned about how to write the software. He opens a text editor and composes new software from scratch using his knowledge and experience from when he was an employee. In this case, the software is entirely his. This is entrepeneural initiative. There is no copyright violation because copyright violation is copying the EXPRESSION of the idea (that is the text, or code). You cannot copyright the idea. There is no derived work because he derived nothing from any stolen property. He is entirely within his rights to do this and the school has no say in the matter.
Just to make one more point clear here, suppose this was really valuable stuff and the school really wanted to make a product of it it and didn't want Grafix to produce a similar product or compete. Clearly, they are protected under copyright law, as discussed. But, in what kind of way can they stop him from writing the software from scratch as in the second approach?
They might have two avenues of approach in this, but they both demand proactive inititiative before Grafix quits his job and action on Grafix's part to recognize their "ownership" of the "idea".
One: they can claim a trade secret. To do this, they would have to identify the algorithms and design of the application as a trade secret, have Grafix sign legal documents that he recognizes and agrees to that fact, and take other steps to protect their "secret". Obviously, this does not apply to web content because it cannot be called a secret - it is freely available to the public. But, it might apply to software algorithms, designs or database structures.
Two: they might obtain a patent. A tough thing. In that case, they must demonstrate, among other things I believe, that it is a true invention: non-obvious and unique. Tough to do - I've never even tried, myself. There are nuances of Grafix's position in this case, that should require consultation with a patent attorney if somebody were in that position.
***Added afer I saw Jack_Straw's second post***
I would be basically be doing what you mentioned in your situtation 2 idea. I don't plan on copying at all any of the pages and modifying code. There are ideas I've had for this app that I didn't implement in this version because they were un-needed. As well the code that is in there, really is not special or anything to write home about. I couldn't see them attempting to get a trademark or patent, considering they have gone out and hired an outside consultant in the 6 figure range, before even considering my work. And are now telling me that all I'm going to be doing is taking the app that the consulting firm is creating it and customizing it somewhat, integrating it with another companies program, and our AS/400. And then sit back and watch the system, while other's on campus populate it, and throw my project out the window, or in the digital file 13. I had to basically fight my supervisor, and draw up a complete document to explain the benefits of this, and at times I still think that it isn't completely understood let alone accepted, since they have the "consultant" blinder on and all they see is the bright future painted by the "experts". I find it hilarious that because another company that charges a large amount of money to describe ideas, and make recommendations in software as well as technology and even procedures on campus that I've been recommending and talking about for over a year, and they are going to be implementing the firms recommendations. Maybe it's because of my age, maybe it's because I was a former student, or maybe it's just because I scare some of the management because of the skills and knowledge I do posses. Anyways, if one company or instuition (say company a) could go after another company or instuition (say company b) because company b's product is similar in look and function to company a's then there would be no similar softare. If it was that case then after photoshop came out, photopaint, paint shop pro, etc could not legally exist. And I can think of a dozen other apps this could apply to. And the same with web sites, how many times have we looked at a web site and was like "that is cool, how'd they do that?" and we look at the source, and apply a similar technique to our site. Does that mean a site that is similar to our's or another company could be violating intellctual property rights just because the look is similar? or a menu functions similarly? Of the thousands upon millions of web sites that exist there has to be a few dozen or even hundred that would be similar? should we go to court? could we go to court? I guess this is just another one of those internet gray areas.
*** End Add ***
The situation also get's a little more cloudy considering that most of the brainstorming and development was done at home, when I wasn't working. The actual coding yes was done in the office, on office computers, with office owned software. But like I've said the backend of it is code built from examples on various tutorial web sites other simple validation. And that was only maybe 30-40% of the code, 25% of it was HTML and javascript and the remaining is SQL statments and ADO code. Now those of you that have created web sites before, you would agree that a business web site no matter how large is very different from a college or university site. Each has different needs, desires, etc. Now yes each company can have different needs, desires, etc., but like korkus said, one can simply be built in a day for a company. I don't want to reveal too much here, since I would like to try and make a living off of it.
korkus- I would have to agree with you, this situtation is very much creating artwork or graphics. I have a graphics background, not actually programming, I kinda do it all now. Anyways if I created a graphic at the college, and created a graphic at home, and they were similar that wouldn't mean i couldn't use the graphic. It would be kinda of weird for a person not to be able to use abilities or knowledge gained from job to job no matter what the context of employment.
One thing about working for a college, at least the one that I work for is, that they encourage you to get training, take classes, go to seminars, even buy books. And at the same time they don't put a ball and chain around your ankle to hold you down or put you on a short leash to know where you are. I've been told before that if I find a better offer somewhere else not to hesitate to act on it. And not that they are trying to get rid of me, all of us in my deptartment have been told that at one time or another. Most of the time the problem is that positions don't open up in our area anyways.
again thanks for your input, I think I need to continue to think about this and evaluate it from the different perspectives.
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grafix
You should know, then, that, legally, the software is not yours. If you are talking about purely legal matters, it is clear, and you should know that.
As a practical matter, I wouldn't quibble with you. This kind of stuff is done all the time. You can probably steal the software and have very little chance of getting caught.
And, maybe, there are personal or political reasons that make it difficult for you to do what I suggest: ask for permission. If you could do that, you might sleep better knowing you have full and unambiguous right to the software that is the basis of your future company.
Really, I make no moral or ethical judgements here. Quite the opposite. There might be lots of aspects of this that I don't know that that would give you a strong moral and ethical justifications for going ahead and assuming ownership of the software. If that is the case, and if I knew that stuff, I would very probably agree with you. But the law is a very different thing from the ethics and morality of this. Don't confuse the two. You may feel ethically justified in assuming ownership of the software. Great. go for it. but, if you are under the misunderstanding that you have legal rights to that software, then you are wrong. If you are under that misunderstanding, and it would matter to you that you are wrong, then I suggest you talk to a lawyer so, at least, you know the fact of the law.
As an example, I sometimes smoke pot. I know it is illegal, but I do it anyway. I don't grant the state the right to interfere in my life in that way. I'm fine with that. But, suppose I had a friend that thought it was actually legal. I would want that person to know the facts, for his own protection. Then, knowing the fact of it being illegal, and being a thinking adult, he can make his own personal ethical decision as well as take what precautions are necessary to protect himself from legal entanglements.
Good luck to you. I wish you success.
I didn't want to really debate this with anyone, but get an idea if anyone has gone through something similar. I would understand if this was something that was completely created by someone else or someone else on campus, but this was something that I thought up, and started working on in my spare time on campus, and then tried to get it used by the campus.
Maybe I shouldn't have posted in the way that I did. Maybe I am wrong for wanting to do what I want to do, but I don't know what else to do for work but stay where I am and keep getting the low pay that I am.
thanks for your opinions.
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grafix
