Forum Moderators: LifeinAsia
Does anybody have any idea how I obtain one such solid person? I'm not looking to go with a firm with major overhead and project management and whatever. I want to manage the project myself and just get someone who has a good command of English and can code well at a good price.
As an product importer from India for over 7 years now, and as a site owner who's already hired a lot of coders both brilliant and inept, honest and corrupt, I wouldn't go anywhere near an Indian ourtsource company if my life depended on it. You're talking about a totally diffferent set of quality standards and a set of business ethics which would make the Simpsons' Mr Burns blush.
I now work with a man in India I've known for 5 years, whom I trust like a brother, and we treat each other failry. But finding him was like finding a needle in a haystack, and boy, did I ever have to pay a lot of tuition.
No one will think twice about writing shoddy code, building a linkfarm-spam monster in your name, or cloning your site for the next cheaparse competitor who waves a pittance under their opportunistic noses.
No, thank you.
You get what you pay for.... Insincerely, I wish you best of luck.
- Find a set of outsourcing companies that fit your bill. Check the websites, look for contact information, etc.
- Contact them, get quotes, ask questions about how many employees they have, etc. See how they respond, time taken, quality of emails, etc.
- If the company websites have bulletin boards, read the messages. Research them in newsgroups and message boards.
- Ask for references, contact them, ask about projects, etc.
IMO there is no quick and easy way around this.
As the largest importer in my trade, and someone who always aims for the utmost in fairness on my end, unfortunately I've had to witness firsthand the ethics of Indian business culture, and been burned by those who simply did what for many is within the normal bounds of that business culture, ie: backstabbing is OK, and anything goes.
Of course, nobody should ever forget that there are always exceptions, that I found just such an honorable exception myself in India, and that no individual should be pre-judged. On the other hand, let's say you get a legitimate business proposal from a (-gasp-) Legitimate Nigerian Businessman. If you decide to jump in, just know the odds and worst case scenarios which are more likely than unlikely to befall you when you do.
I totally share your concerns. Being a Russian (Moscow) local I've been both in the role of an employer of remote developers and a remote developer myself.
PHP/MySQL field abounds with unskilled developers, unfortunately, because it's a starting point for most of the would-be developers. One has to carefully examine cv's and portfolios, paying attention to all the technical details.
Have you tried a freelance aggregator, like Elance? I've had good success finding competent programmers from all over the world (From the Ukrane to USA). You can review their work, portfolio, and reviews.
Good luck,
KOB
This is the most absurd statement i seen in WebmasterWorld ... Luckychucky , obviously you are burnt by some crook but you cannot just like that generalise an entire country of one billion! ...
There is a reason all those fortune 500 companies are flocking to India and trust me ,this companies aint trade quality for low price!.
The only time I've had success with outsourcing is when I've had local programmer friends look into who their companies have been able to work with successfully.
Prior to this method, the one time I went down this route it has been good in some ways but a real headache in others. What I've found in my experience is that they can do a good job, but you really have to stay on top of them. They have also not been very creative in applying workarounds to problems. When you want to tell a local employee to walk from point A to point B, you don't have to give them a long-drawn out list of exceptions - if its windy, do this, if you get to a puddle, do that, etc. You just rely on their intuition and ability to ask questions (using the cell phone you gave them) along the way if they run into bumps. What I've found in many cases is that these guys just stop at the problem spot and don't really tell you that they're waiting and don't know what to do next. Perhaps it is a confidence thing, but for whatever reason, it is a different approach to things.
If you ship to Indonesia on the other hand, chances are your package will arrive rifled-through, with items stolen. Why? Because Indonesia is a notorious kleptocracy run by mass murderers...If you take a trip down to Mexico City, be especially careful of the police, because they are infamous as being the worst criminals in Mexican society. Referring again to Nigeria, would you seriously consider a Nigerian business proposition without extreme caution?
Are there exceptions? Absolutely, positively, vehemently--YES. Unfortunately you're playing the odds, and I must insist that generalizations do apply in these outsourcing scenarios. If your aim is to save a buck no matter the consequences, you might get what you paid for-and a lot worse. Just a heads up.
I've outsourced work to India for 2 years without a problem.
It took two tries to find the right company, the first firm completely ripped me off by taking my down payment never to be heard from again, the second a truly reputable very professional company and such we have built an excellent business relationship.
IMHO it can be worth the effort.
No, generalizations are always always bad. It is better to state fact and draw conclusions from fact.
I guess you don't believe me. I'll repeat, it was worth the effort.
Another generalization?
(..and either low on funds, or just a tightwad, which is worse.)
yes, cost is obviously a factor. but for what it's worth, i've used u.s.-born coders and coders from other countries who were educated entirely overseas and i've found that the overseas coders have generally been much higher quality, by a good factor. much (but not all) of my experience was during the dot-com craziness when every coder in sight was gobbled up immediately and all that was left were the dregs, so it may not be a fair comparison. but i now know how to code and i can't believe that my u.s. coders were taking many weeks to do a project that i have subsequently done myself in two or three solid days.
The way I find offshore work is word of mouth. By networking with people and making inquiries, it's possible to find high quality work from around the world, as well as within one's own backyard.
[edited by: martinibuster at 5:49 pm (utc) on Sep. 13, 2004]
Look, I've said my piece. take your chances and hire whomever you wish. You guys are adults and you're free to roll your own dice.
I do pretty high-end stuff and make most of my money consulting in silicon valley (mostly database development). But I live in Budapest as much as I can, so if work comes in through people like you I charge a lot less, since for personal reasons I want to be there.
I have met some people who run offshore houses in Hungary and Romania and get a lot of business, but I'd say if you're just looking for one or two people you're much better off using your social network and forums like this (and craigslist).
I recently did a gig for about nine months and was paid $2500/month (paid in the US, so all the tax badness applies) plus a substantial chunk of equity. That wasn't quite enough to cover all my cost-of-lifestyle expenses but for an interesting project, working for a friend, it was well worth it. If the dollar was where it was two years ago, I would have been slightly ahead financially.
In Budapest someone of my qualifications normally *costs* significantly more than that, *but* if you're looking at a salaried position your take-home wouldn't be much more even if you were very good.
I don't know how many folks like me are out there - ie, Americans, giving you the advantage of familiar work and communication styles; and seasoned professionals; but living in lower-income parts of the world for personal, as opposed to professional, reasons. But I would guess there are quite a few. Based on what you said you were looking for, I'd say such a mid-level expat coder in any of the new member states of the EU (or Spain,Portugal or Greece) would be quite happy with US$2K/month, even with the weak dollar. That's for full-time (which for Europeans rarely means more than 40/week, though folks who have worked in the US will probably be comfortable with unpaid overtime when needed).
Local talent is of course somewhat cheaper, and Central Europe provides a nice mix of "western" style, strong education (esp. in math and engineering) and a significantly lower price tag than the US. No disrespect to all the great coders in India, but if you're looking to strike a balance in offshoring and looking at smaller projects with freelancers or small shops, you should definitely investigate Central Europe.
If you are dealing with folks overseas directly, regardless of their nationality, you will generate a lot of goodwill (and possibly discounts) if you can wire them their payments directly. In the CE area people are quite used to creatively dealing with their taxes, and most would happily pay the $35 transfer fee if you made the effort to wire their payments.
If you're looking to spend as little as possible, you can also contact professors at the technical schools and ask them to recommend talented students.
Your best bet is always to go with someone who knows someone who knows someone. Telecommuting always has its pitfalls on both sides, and having a personal connection even to N degrees can go a long way towards avoiding and smoothing out misunderstandings.
I'm in the States for a few months now, but if the need arises in the future (post-December) and you're interested in Budapest, feel free to PM me and I will be happy to spread the word on a karmic basis.
