Forum Moderators: phranque
He emailed me back with aggressive threats of what he does to spammers and who he was going to report me to and what the consequences would be.
We are both UK businesses, I clicked on his email link. It was a simple honest business proposition, not a sales letter.
My argument is that if you don't want people to email you, don't have a link.
Surely every email you receive from your site is 'unsolicited'? ... or are you soliciting emails by placing a link.
My question is did I 'spam' or is his interpretation of 'spamming' slightly distorted?
I'm going to kick the dead horse one last time.
I had ocassion yesterday to send out quite a number of unsolicited and probably unwanted emails.
They were all asking that 302 redirect links to my site be removed.
SPAM? Not a chance .. not even technically.
DO IT TO JULIA!
DO IT TO JULIA!
;) ZOO
But what is unsolicited?
Every initial email to anyone is unsolicited, so the first email, no matter what the subject, is spam? ... I don't think so!
" I had ocassion yesterday to send out quite a number of unsolicited and probably unwanted emails.
They were all asking that 302 redirect links to my site be removed. "
I wouldn't call that spam either, but you bring up a good point. There's no quick-and-easy way to define SPAM, yet we all know it when we see it.
Its kinda like porn in that regard.
Predictably, the scum out there use this difficulty to cloud the issue, saying in effect that their spam isn't really spam.
Disgusting and transparent, but they still try.
I suppose the most common factors are the large number of emails sent, the commercial aspect, in addition to it being highly unwelcome if not offensive.
Your message had lots of recipients, and yes the 302-redirect hyenas will find it unwelcome, but you were not selling any product or service.
To me, that alone makes a big difference. -Larry
When is spam not spam?
My answer is; when it is a legitimate business message, unsolicited or otherwise.
Every initial email to anyone is unsolicited, so the first email, no matter what the subject, is spam? ... I don't think so!
I cannot believe you still persist with this particular line. The term unsolicited is perfectly clear, indeed it has been explained in this thread for those struggling with the English language or unwilling to pick up a dictionary.
It has been made very clear, the general interpretation is that if you have a 'contact us' link - you are soliciting emails.
If you don't want to receive emails, make other measures - fairly simple really, even to those who mis-read the English languge.
the general interpretation is that if you have a 'contact us' link - you are soliciting emails.
Most websites are happy to solicit emails from their readers. That's not a free-for-all invite for every passing hustler to send them an advert for the latest snake oil.
In this case, you're not a hustler and you weren't selling snake oil. But the guy - whose situation you don't know, let's face it - is possibly at his wit's end from being bombarded by unwelcome commercial messages. As a result he missed the win-win proposal.
If it's that much of an opportunity, perhaps you could go around to his office in person?
Your message had lots of recipients, and yes the 302-redirect hyenas will find it unwelcome, but you were not selling any product or service.To me, that alone makes a big difference.
I tend to vigorously agree with you. To me, spam is mass mailing of promotional material, especially if the subject has been obfuscated to avoid simple email filters.
But that's just me ..
Thanks for your reasoned response.:)
My feeling is that the person who sent the aggressive threatening response was the assistant to the junior secretary's trainee and cousin. It was fuelled during an ego trip and it massaged some self-importance.
>>>>If it's that much of an opportunity, perhaps you could go around to his office in person?
As an update, I managed to obtain the owner's email address and sent it with this starter;
I previously dropped this quick note through to you via your general email but received this response; If you would like to take it further, please feel free to contact me.
We have since formed a great partnership and are friends, the ambitious ego-kid who thinks all 'non-solicited' email is spam, now works elsewhere in his company, but in a less damaging capacity. As far away from emails as possible and as near to the kettle as neccessary.
There will always be a minority that feel all non-solicited emails are spam, if their system cannot filter out the bulk and their minds unable to filter the rest, they truly have a problem and financial suicide could be close by.
Accept that there are good decent honest business people out their who use this email system as a form of communication, like the telephone, fax or mail. Each one of those have their form of 'spam' too.
Sadly, email is open to fast and furious response and I'm pretty sure we've all fired one off and wished we'd taken more time over it.
Thankfully it is a minority that feel 'unsolicited' email is spam and I'm pretty sure some of them lynched a few innocent people in a previous life! LOL
It has been made very clear, the general interpretation is that if you have a 'contact us' link - you are soliciting emails
I would disagree strongly with the above, 'general interpretation' is presumptious and that contact us means you are soliciting any form of communication.
Also you are plainly contradicting yourself.
You said that "all first emails are unsolicited" (which is nonsense of course)
now you say that having a contact link means they are solicited.
So your email was both solicited and unsolicited at the same time by your own words!
You are entitled to disagree, it is a forum and your input is valuable.
>>>>>>>Also you are plainly contradicting yourself.
You said that "all first emails are unsolicited" (which is nonsense of course) >>>
No it isn't nonsense, all first emails are unsolicited. If I drop you an email right now, one that you have not solicited .... is unsolicted.
>>>>>>now you say that having a contact link means they are solicited. >>>>>
If however you place a 'contact us' link on your website, you are soliciting emails.
>>>>>So your email was both solicited and unsolicited at the same time by your own words! >>>
Perfect example of not reading posts and mis-interpreting statements.
Let's look at the aspect of soliciting emails by virtue of creating a 'contact us' link and its many caveats.
# contact us # = Send us an email.
# Tel No. # = Call us.
# Fax No. # = Send us a fax.
# Technical Support # = Send us an email if you are a customer that requires help! ONLY!
# Customer Enquiries # = Send us an email if you are a customer with a general enquiry! ONLY!
The latter is soliciting emails from a limited source and clearly indicates that. Thus if I send an email to this mailbox that has nothing to customer support or customer services, it is unsolicited.
If I see an advertisement in a newspaper with an email address it is soliciting emails.
Hopefully this clarifies your confusion.
Once again in your post you clearly state:
All first emails are unsolicited
You then go on to give examples when first emails are solicited! If that is not a contradiction then I don't know what is.
Offering contact details, be they email or telephone etc is not a request that everybody should contact you regardless.
The implication is that that contact should be relevent to site content and aims.
If you are selling CDs then you are clearly soliciting (or inviting if this is clearer) emails about CDs.
You are clearly not requesting people email you with offers of double glazing etc!
This thread has to die as it is going nowhere.
An inability to understand and accept the basic meaning of words and self contradiction means this could go on forever
The logic is that all initial emails are by their very nature 'unsolicited'.
If I send you an email that you have not solicited ...it is unsolicited.
In order to make an email 'solicited' the recipient must 'invite' people to send them. I gave examples of such invitations. There are always exceptions to a rule, and these are they.
There are no contradictions here but clear definitions.
Offering contact details are invitations to be contacted.
You cloud the issue by talking about CD's and Double Glazing. This post has been about proper relevent business emails relating to the nature of the site.
If you have a 'contact us' link on your website, you are soliciting contact.
If I send you a straight forward 100% relevent business email, I am not spamming ... not in any way, shape or form.
We can all pick holes in these posts and turn a debate into an argument but logic will always rise.
My point has never changed, but I'm lost as to yours.
the email address is there for enquiries from people who want to buy products or services - it is not there for anyone and everyone to send junk emails to.
a front door is not there for the benefit of doorstep salesmen
a telephone line is not installed for the benefit of cold callers
my email address is not set up for the benefit of spammers
you are a spammer. full stop.
Read the posts properly then think about accusing me of being a spammer.
Getting the hang of the topic usually helps before you fire from the hip.
Just in case someone thought I was firing from the hip!
[edited by: peewhy at 9:25 pm (utc) on May 9, 2005]
IMO a one-off, personalized email with a genuine business offer that makes sense for both parties is not spam by any reasonable interpretation of the word.
If I refuse the offer and subsequently receive other offers from the same guy, I would consider the follow-ups spam. The first email, no way.
Life is too short and business too hard to generate for me to be playing petty games with semantics. Feel free to make me a legitimate, one-time business offer any time. We just might make some money. But if I say no, that's my final answer... don't contact me again.
Simple, professional, and it doesn't alienate potential customers and business parters (who I might be interested in partnering with some day).
"Due to the very large amount of spam I receive, my spam definition is anything I didn't ask for. "
Sadly, it is often not the business owner that 'polices' the emails, usually the Junior Webmaster's Assistant takes it upon themselves.
In my case,based on my original email, I couldn't accept that anyone with more two brain cells would fire off such an aggressive threat in response to a perfectly sensible proposition.
Eventually I did manage to email the owner who was fuming at the manner in which I was dealt with.
We now have an excellent business and we're good friends.
So it was worth persisting, and I thank my business instinct.
Emails are an import part of most businesses. Sure there are those sites that aspire to be money making machines without human contact. But the vast majority are an extention to a business.
Just because there isn't an order attached to an email, it doesn't make it spam.
I wonder what the true cost of wrongly disposed emails really is on a day to day basis because a fool considers it 'spam'.
i probably lose the odd one or two genuine business enquiries every month when i delete everything that looks like spam
but the cost of those losses is far less than the time spent sifting through the several hundred spam emails i get every day with "genuine business opportunities" and the like ........
if we didn't get spam, we wouldn't need to delete hundreds of emails every day and we wouldn't lose any business ........
i'm still waiting for your address so i can send loads of double glazing salesmen round .......
I have software that does the job but it doesn't delete sensible propositions.
...if we didn't get spam, we wouldn't need to delete hundreds of emails every day and we wouldn't lose any business ........
I deplore spam as much as the next guy, but I deplore throwing cash into the trash bin even more.
The guy sending me a one-off email offering to help me make money in a way that makes sense for my business isn't part of the problem. The guy sending out 8 million generic emails trying to steal my money is the problem.
A wise businessman learns how to tell the difference and take advantage of opportunities when they arise.
If he thought it was spam, then in his mind it was spam! Leave him alone, walk away from it and move on! You are better off without him. Surely you have better things to do with your time than rehash this question. Don't you?
This has been dragging on for over a month!
Participation is a choice, those that don't want to, don't have to.
It's a forum, and thus encourages agreement ... and disagreement.
