Forum Moderators: phranque
He emailed me back with aggressive threats of what he does to spammers and who he was going to report me to and what the consequences would be.
We are both UK businesses, I clicked on his email link. It was a simple honest business proposition, not a sales letter.
My argument is that if you don't want people to email you, don't have a link.
Surely every email you receive from your site is 'unsolicited'? ... or are you soliciting emails by placing a link.
My question is did I 'spam' or is his interpretation of 'spamming' slightly distorted?
Much of it, I feel is a question of maturity and self-imposed authority.
I've run a business for thirty years and have been a director of a plc. Before the internet we once identified Switchboard Operators has an area where business development training was important and dealing with phone rage was a priority.
This has shifted to receivers of email and the lazy ability to copy and paste.
"don't understand..must be spam".
When I've received ambiguous messages being mindful that we don't all use English as our first language, I've responded for more details in order to clarify whether it is an opportunity or not.
The UK law is straight forward and sensible.
I think many just don't get the point that regardless of your helpful intentions, unsolicited email today sucks as a vehicle for business development. The reason the emailers don't get it is because it's cheap, and they can't resist cheap even if it doesn't work.
Go back, it's a trap. IMHO
I think there's a lot of people out there that can't drive the vehicle!
There is a state of mind with varying levels of toleration and because they consider spam as anything they don't like, they will trash a particular email as spam totally dependant upon their mindset that moment.
Forget the real spam for one moment, such as viagra pedlars etc and look at the one off propositions. They are not sent as spam, but they can be received and perceived as spam ...why?
. Because it wasn't the order that someone expected
. Because it followed a complaint from a customer
. Because someone sent a massive jpeg that took too long
Those that have adopted Firefox have probably gained more tolerance because we can simply hit the 'bin' if we don't like it. ...but to send a very aggressive threat as a response to a business proposition is based on the theory that >>unsolicited email today sucks as a vehicle for business development
Email is a very powerful method of building business..mutually, without spam. It justs takes some understanding.
Forget the real spam for one moment, such as viagra pedlars etc
You persist in trying to to assign spam to a specific box or product etc.
Spam is unsolicited mail, which has been mentioned ad nauseam, it cannot be defined to fall within the narrow confines of self-interest.
It boils down to the previously mentioned question does he solicit such emails?
If so, fine, if not = spam.
I fail to see how it could be any clearer
I don't solicit such proprosals but I welcome them all, provided they are genuine.
Kaled.
Absolutely right. If you receive a genuine one to one business proposal ...not a mass email. Would you consider it as a spammed email?
His website has a 'contact us' link ...I contacted him. Not Spam. He solicited my email.
He solicited my email.
A flip side example; I get bombarded by ebayers telling me about specific books they are auctioning. They do internet searches and hit everyone who may be interested. Many would call this spam, however in my case a large part of one site is designed to buy in books so, by implication, I solicit such emails, therefore to me personally they cannot be regarded as spam.
When someone says 'contact us' the implication is obviously within the confines of the site.
If he states, or obviously implies, an interest in receiving proposals such as you made then it is fine.
If not spam - the above statement is all that matters
>>In the UK the law is very clear on this -- unsolicited electronic communications to business addresses are just fine. Anyone who publishes email on their website under Contact Us section that invites people to contact should expect to get a message from someone they don't know.
Here's one from MathewHSE
>>By placing an e-mail address on your site, you are inviting any non-automated, deliberate and individual e-mail as long as there's a legitimate tie-in to your site (unless your e-mail link is clearly labelled "support," "orders," etc.). If you just throw your e-mail address into your site footer with no explanation or anything, what do you expect people to use it for? Perhaps to admire how pretty that particular combination of letters looks?
You suggest I check our law, may I, with respect ask you to check this;
Here is more information on the matter from Official UK body that deals with issues like this:
[informationcommissioner.gov.uk...]
Please remember, we are in the UK and our law differs from those outside the EU.
You may think that your important fantastic offer is not spam, but you are not the one receiving it.
When checking my email, if I say it is spam then it is spam.
You can argue until you're blue in the face but it not you getting the spam so it not your decision.
Spam is what the recipient decides it is, QED.
zoo
Having said that, I totally disagree with Zooloo:
"if I say it is spam then it is spam [...] Spam is what the recipient decides it is, QED"
Zoolo, there's no demonstrandum here, just because you would like it to - this is your personal opinion and valid as such, but it is not necessarily fact! Either we all agree on certain things, because we have the same view on something, or we adhere to what is established by rules and regulations. In this case it seems pretty clear that in this case the UK regulations allow this kind of unsolicited email.
Aside from that there is IMHO another question which needs to be addressed: When is a first contact via email legitimate? After all, the whole point of electronic mail is the ability to quickly contact people! Just because the system is vastly abused, doesn't mean that that the underlying principles have become obsolete. Maybe I talk like that because I am a (nearly) first hour user of the net (first non-IT student at our uni with a mail account), long before it became commercialised. But especially in view of the commercialisation (which in itself I consider to be negative), I really hate this "Buy my stuff but don't bother contacting me" attitude that a lot of business on the net display.
But enough of my ranting - just my 2c :-)
Pixelman
The recipient of the email is the one who can decide if it is spam or not.
On personal level this is true since people can think what they want to think, whether its correct or not -- its their right.
Things get somewhat more complicated if they want to act based on their thoughts -- if these thoughts are incorrect then their action can fail either quickly or some time later: its not spam to handwrite an email to someone who published their email in contact us section.
The decision is left to the person who recieves it. It doesn't get sent as spam, only received as spam.
'Spam' being a word they use for something 'THEY' don't like. It doesn't make it 'Spam' to the rest of the world...Spam is in the mind of the beholder!
I would consider some spamming me when they send me and the users in my network the same email message more than once and those that spam as livelihood meaning they would be selling viagra today and loan tomorrow.
On the other, I report spam to spamcop more aggressively than anyone else and blocks most DSL connection directly coming to our server.
Most definitions were along the lines of "unsolicited bulk email" but a few definitions omit the "bulk" part.
I think "bulk" is essential to the definition, but clearly, opinions differ.
Kaled.
To the first question, spam is in the eyes of the beholder and there's nothing the message sender can do about that. There are several definitions of spam, however.
You could go by a very strict definition, by which every e-mail you don't explicitly ask for on an individual basis is spam. That would effectually mean your family couldn't even e-mail you at work to see what you wanted to do for Junior's birthday.
A more reasonable definition of spam is any e-mail that was unrequested and sent (automated or otherwise) by someone you don't have an existing relationship with. The problem with this is that e-mail is often how some very valuable relationships are initiated. To reject all messages of this type as spam could result in lost business or other opportunities.
And the most lax definition of spam that I can think of is that spam is only messages that are sent, unrequested, by someone you don't know, about something that has nothing to do with your business or your interests.
The second question is more of an ethical question. Personally, I believe I have a right to contact anyone I like if I believe my message is relevant to their business AND as long as I don't add them to an automated list or something. What they do with my message is their choice; if they want my business they'll respond. If they don't want my business, they can count my message as spam and I'll go to their competitor.
I would like to add that I think e-mail is being unfairly singled out for criticism these days. Are the mailpieces you send out "postal" spam? They're unsolicited, often of little interest, etc. And yet junk mail doesn't cause nearly the same reaction as e-mail spam.
I dislike junk mail and spam as much as the next guy. But I recognize that many businesses couldn't get by without sending some unsolicited e-mails or mailpieces. It just doesn't make sense, and it's not realistic, for people to claim that I have no right to contact them unless I'm asked to do so. How would they even ask me to contact them, unless I've first contacted them in some way to let them know about me? At its most basic level, most types of advertising would be impossible under those conditions, since after all you never asked to see my magazine ad or hear my radio commercial. Maybe your business can get by without advertising, but most cannot. And likewise, maybe your business can get by without ever contacting someone out of the blue, but most cannot. Why, then, should e-mail be considered an especially rude or inconsiderate way of making these contacts that are so necessary?
Take Jeff and George. Jeff runs a web design business and is in need of some new computer equipment. George is a supplier of just the products Jeff needs. Jeff starts searching around and finds George's website. Finding an e-mail address on the site, he sends George a message to ask for a price quote. But this displeases George. He never asked to receive Jeff's message. Who does Jeff think he is, spamming people like this? George responds angrily and deletes Jeff's message. Jeff looks around some more, finds another supplier named Joe, gets his quote, and becomes a regular customer. Not only that, he's so pleased with Joe's service that he tells all his friends. Soon, Joe has $100,000 worth of business that came directly from Jeff. Meanwhile, George continues to refuse e-mail inquiries. His business falters, then folds. Fortunately, Joe is doing so much business that he needs to hire another employee, so George gets a job in the shipping department of Joe's store...
You suggest I check our law, may I, with respect ask you to check this;
I did not suggest you check the law, nor do I suggest there is anything remotely illegal in sending unsolicited emails. I suggested you check the definition of the words you were using.
Your claim that he had a 'contact us' link on his page meant that he was soliciting emails, which is, by definition, wrong.
You also claimed in one post 'that every first email is unsolicited' once again completely wrong.
I suggested you check the definition because, as demonstrated, you keep using the terms completely out of context
If a website has a 'contact us' link, they are soliciting contact.
Deny it, refute it ... whatever, but it is fact.
I think they are your own definitions as I have mine
They are not my definitions but those of the English language.
Solicit means; to make a formal or earnest appeal, to entreat or to approach with a request or plea.
Hope the above helps a little, though I doubt it will
This is a dead thread, giving me a headache!
Your claim that he had a 'contact us' link on his page meant that he was soliciting emails, which is, by definition, wrong.
A "Contact Us" link may not be an actual solicitation for e-mails, but it's clearly intended to be used. Availability and solicitation are not the same, but in this case, the practical effect is the same. A contact link is presumably there so people can use it. So what's the problem with using it?
You ask him to leave, or ignore him.
Your door is OPEN for business.
I was shut down using a mailing list because someone got pissy and decided that they didnt want my email. Hey, ever heard about the delete key? Why did you have to shut me down: how about just a cease and desist..I'm happy to do it.
Im a family business, a small website, and someone's allowed to shut me down because people are so wigged out about spam? What gives?
j
Honestly, printed junk mail gets filtered too, most never gets past the mail box. Mail like credit card offers, loans and mortgages, tele companies etc. never get opened and are trashed without routing.
You should really be shredding those credit card apps. That's what bugs me the most about them -- I shred anything with my name on it and I have to shred at least two credit card apps a week.
only CONTACT US if spending.
Im a family business, a small website, and someone's allowed to shut me down because people are so wigged out about spam? What gives?
If you send out 1 million emails and each only wastes, on average, 1 second of everyone's time, that is one million seconds of human life that is being stolen. Allowing for sleep, that's around 17-18 days of human life being stolen. Send out enough spam and, you are, effectively a murderer. Ok there is no single dead body, but a thief is still a thief if he takes 1 million dollars from one person or from 100 million people (1 cent at a time)
Kaled.
Send out enough spam and, you are, effectively a murderer.
Lets not get over ourselves -- even the worst spammers are not doing something anywhere close to murder, with possible exceptions when they use spam to scam money out of old people who might die as the result.
Mass mailing and certainly scam do not apply in this case: it is not spam to write an email to someone who published it in "contact us section". I hate spammers, but to take it that far is simple wrong and I'd rather live with spam (Thunderbird's anti-spam feature solved problem completely as far as I am concerned) than deny myself and others low cost and convinience of email.
This suggests a fair penalty for convicted spammers however.
Make a fair estimate of how much of all our time spammers waste.
Don't forget to throw in the time-equivalent of spam fighting.
Take any costs and divide by the average day's wage in this country.
If somebody opens a laundromat and sends out 500 unsolicited emails
to announce the fact, this would put an upper limit to his penalty (if any)
If somebody sends refinance/viagra you name it to every Dick and Jane
in North America, over and over, well the numbers add up fast.
For once, the punishment could fit the crime with mathematical precision. - Larry
The person that read the email chose to reply with all sorts of threats and varying harsh accusations of spam.
One could throw up this strange argument that if every person in the UK (60 million) all sent one sensible business proposition, that would be 60 million ... bla, bla zzzzzzzzzz.
In reality if every business sent just one sensible business proposition, and the owner of the receiving site, not the junior webmaster read and acted positively upon that proposition, great business could be generated.
Because there are real criminals sending out real spam, real innocent business people are being tarred with the same brush.
I think if you have the time and energy to orchestrate an aggressive threat and send it back to that single one off business proposition you really need to go to two classes, Anger Management and Spam Clarification.
We have a sought-after niche product in preparation. Last year we put up a form on the widget's site so that potential customers could request to be notified by e-mail when the item is available. We can't take definitive orders many months in advance.
But now I've been having after thoughts. It's only maybe 200 notification e-mails, but I'm afraid some folks (private persons) have forgotten all about their own request made long ago, and will consider this e-mail spam.
What do you think, should I better trash all the requests and stop taking new ones? The majority are Americans. The CAN-SPAM act has no effect on the real spamming, but innocent e-mail senders, like jschmitz and peewhy, can get in deep trouble.
