Forum Moderators: phranque
many people, myself included, consider HTML, XHTML and CSS programming. They are languages, use keywords and variables (that's what a css selector really is, after all), etc. Your posted code snippet and subsequent comments regarding it imply that you define 'programming' as languages like PERL, PHP or javaScript, but that seems like an awfully narrow definition.
I personally don't consider presentation programming. While writing valid HTML, XHTML and CSS is a skill, and a syntax that takes a bit of learning, it is a different skill from fitting the logic together. I just saw the term coder in another thread, and think that's a good one to describe the skill.
The code involved in doing a for-next loop to extract data for a website is pretty element is pretty elementary programming.
As programming gets more involved more has to be taken into account.
One example is an accounting system where online updating of several tables at once being done by a number of people and you need to ensure that different updates happening at the same time do not affect each other.
Another example from my day job which is more webbased is a routine I built on two webservers. The webserver integrated into our legacy database system is fine for straight HTML. If I want to do any graphing I create a XML output from it and use PHP on an Apache server to built graphs on the fly. When I wrote a page that required a number gor graphs from the same routine I wanted to avoid fetching the XML each time and store it in a temporary file on the Apache server. My PHP graphing routine handles the task of checking if this file exists, creating it if needed, and deleting temporary files more than a day old. The trickiest part was making sure the several instances of the graphing process didn't all try to do the same thing at once.
...I thought it covered the following:
Basic scripting
Basic scripting (usually JavaScript) is programming. JavaScript has all the hallmarks of being a programming language - loops, variables and conditions. It is also dynamic output.
I think part of the problem is that webmaster 'sounds' like a poorer job than programmer. People think programming is complicated (which it can be) and that designing a website is easy (because my nephew can do it, it must be easy!).
We need a better title than 'webmaster' (it sounds geeky to the outside world). As does 'Search Engine Optimiser', it also needs a more powerful type name - any suggestions?
P.S. Most people here who think HTML is programming, probably use JavaScript and are therefore programmers anyway! There are probably not that many web designers left who haven't used any form of programming.
I'm good with one server-side scripting language. All of my own sites, I make myself. Yahoo-style directories, content management, shopping categories, etc.
But I don't think I'm a programmer. For instance, I made a forum that could easily be plugged onto any site content (end of an article, or as a stand-alone, etc). Worked fine. Until the number of users went up by a factor of 4. It didn't scale. (That means it worked fine for a small amount of data but when the amount got larger, it didn't work so well.)
I learned from my mistake, etc. etc., but a programmer understands how to anticipate and test the system constraints.
I learned from my mistake, etc. etc., but a programmer understands how to anticipate and test the system constraints.
Just like webmaster there is no definite category for programmer. A programmer can be someone who just finished a programming 101 class to a person who just earned their PhD in computer science. It is too bad that so much computer related terms are completely washed out. I hear people say, I work in IT. Well, what exactly is Information Technology? A telemarketer could say because they use a phone and read a computer screen that they are in the IT field. Here are some more terms that have loose definitions, Network Analyst, Network Engineer, Computer Consultant, or Technical Consultant.
A friend just bought a new computer and asked me if it was any good. I said yes (computer consultant). He asked me to come over and help him set it up (technical consultant). I looked on the back of his computer to find where to plug the router in (network anylyst). I set up his firewall on his router (network engineer). He gave me $20 bucks for helping him, now I dabble in information technology. Oh wait, he wants me to set up a geocities account to post some pictures of his family. He wants me to change the color scheme (webmaster). He wants the curser to have little dots trailing it while people view his page. I cut, paste, and do a little editing to a script (programmer).
It's easy in most other fields, state certfied nursing assistant (CNA), attorney (the bar exam), doctor (PhD), car mechanic (ASA certified), welder (license), electrician (certification), refrigeration (license).
I cut, paste, and do a little editing to a script (programmer).
This is wrong. This is not programming, this is coding.
This is a common confusion, which I thought I dealt with before.
Programming is about program design, coding is about describing the design to the computer. The two cannot be divorced, since programming languages impose constraints, which impact on the design.
So you cannot have a programmer who doesn't know how to code. You can, on the other hand, have coding without program design, which is what twist is describing above.
This is the source of twist's confusions. What s/he is really saying is that a book explaining, say, how to code C++ will be longer than a book explaing how to code HTML.
This is perhaps true. But the skills of the programmer and the web site designer are about using this knowledge topractical effect, not about being able to answer triv-quiz questions on obscure aspects of the code's specifications. These skills are different, but neither set of skills is trivial.
I know people who've done degrees in 'webmastering' who I'd never let touch my HTML - and don't know a jot about the stuff we tend to call 'programming languages.' But some make more money doing this than I do.
There are people who know CSS backwards and forwards, but who I'd turn down for some jobs in favor of a dreamweaver clicker who has a bit more aesthetic sense, even if it means the site is bloated and won't validate. There are people who are members of professional webmaster guilds who I'd turn down in favor of non-associated, learned-it-at-home types. It all depends on what it is I need getting done, and what the aptitudes are. If I don't have to find out what the aptitudes are, I'll try to find someone with a diploma or accreditation.
I know people who have done gender studies at university level and, rather than acting in a way likely to foster good relations between genders, end up doing quite the opposite with rather uncritical remarks, incurring the greatest damage, ultimately, on women - who usually suffer the most for distrust amongst the sexes.
We need some means of generalizing and categorizing, or no communication would ever take place. But generalizing and categorizing are virtually synonyms for discrimination. It's the non-discriminate discrimination we have to worry about, where people seem to be included or excluded from a certain category arbitrarily.
After much heavy pondering over the social context and linguistic aspects of this debate, I do believe treeline's conclusion provides the most appropriate closure to the issue:
"To be a real programmer they must eat pizza and drink beer. ;)"
Twist - He wants the curser to have little dots trailing it while people view his page. I cut, paste, and do a little editing to a script (programmer).
TheDoctor - This is wrong. This is not programming, this is coding.
Creating annoying dots to trail your mouse is typically done in javascript. Javascript, of course, is a programming language. If you can read and edit a javascript then you at least have some knowledge of programming. The irony, that seemed to be missed, was that even a person who edits the occasional javascript could consider themselves a programmer. Making the point that a person going around telling people he/she is a programmer doesn't really say much. I wouldn't hire an employee on the basis that they said they were a programmer or webmaster. The proof is in the pudding. You would have to hold them up to some kind of standard.
mincklerstraat - and don't know a jot about the stuff we tend to call 'programming languages.'
A programming language is a programming language. There is no debate on that subject. If your referring to some people calling html or css programming languages, then don't worry about it, they are not. Once again, before any type of debate begins. If you don't believe me, get a college or university catalog and see what they teach in programming classes. If you find a programming class that says it teaches html/css, don't go to that school.
mincklerstraat - There are people who know CSS backwards and forwards, but who I'd turn down for some jobs in favor of a dreamweaver clicker who has a bit more aesthetic sense, even if it means the site is bloated and won't validate. There are people who are members of professional webmaster guilds who I'd turn down in favor of non-associated, learned-it-at-home types.
Your boss hands you a VB project that needs to be done in one month. He tells you your job depends on it and you can hire someone to help you get it done. How would you choose the person you were going to hire? I personally would give them a set of tests that shows me without a doubt they can handle the job. They could show me some of their previous work, but that doesn't tell me how fast or slow they are. They could talk about their previous experience or degrees, but there are C students and A students, fast employees and slow employees. Once again, my job, house payment, car payment and reputation depends on getting this project done. So, just like you, I would hire whoever was best for the job.
Writing for the web as a medium
Mark-up and styling
Knowledge of web standards
Knowledge of accessibility guidelines
Knowledge of usability guidelines
Page layout design
Information architecture
Basic graphic design
FTP
Basic SEO
Basic scripting
Basic promotional techniques
Basic data management
A programmer doesn't have much to do with website reality, but making a site that works, fulfils the owner's expectations, and actually shows up on searches is what a Webmaster is all about.
Of course, sitting in an ivory tower and looking out the narrow windows does not indicate much of a view of the real world where dollars spent are supposed to produce satisfaction returned. This is the reality that real Webmasters deal with daily.
The person who COPIED the code is not a programmer.
Programming involves:
logic cycles
conditions
variables
HTML is not a programming language as it doesn't provide any of the above.
JavaScript is a rudimentary programming language.
ASP, PhP are rudimentary programming languages
Perl, Python, TcL are more advanced
Java, C++, C C#, VB are advanced programming languages.
