NOT being political! But how to address "gender"

[csdude55]

For 20 years, I've had a "gender" field when users create their profile or a personal ad. It's always been a simple radio button for "male" or "female".

But it's 2022, and experts currently recognize 16 different gender identities:

[womenshealthmag.com...]

If I want to be properly inclusive then I'd have to list "Cisgender Male" and "Cisgender Female". But considering my target audience, I don't think that 75% of my users would have any clue what "cisgender" means. Worse, I'd be making a political statement in a volatile environment that could deter users entirely!

But NOT being inclusive is also making a political statement :-/

What are the other cool kids doing?

I feel like a third button that says "Other" isn't quite cutting it.

Maybe a third button for "LGBTQ+"?

[tangor]

If you play the game, just leave the field blank, offering 6 characters for the user to fill in themselves. Forget radio "gender" or "yes/no"...

If you want to play the game, of course.

That said, is it necessary to know the gender of the client in the first place?

(Yes, it COULD BE helpful, but... 96+ genders really complicates FORM programming!)

[csdude55]

It's not really critical for the user profile, but I'm not sure how to get around it for the personal ads. The whole thing has gotten SUPER complicated, I have to let the user select their identity AND select which gender identities they're comfortable with! Which would be fine except that my average user doesn't know the terms or understand them.

Which means that I can't use a text field, either, or I'd end up with a ton of misspellings and jokes.

But it also means that I have to be very careful to include every identity, because leaving one out becomes an insult. And I have to keep up with it as proper terms change over time (eg, terms that are used now that were derogatory a few years ago).

[robzilla]

Maybe a third button for "LGBTQ+"?

Lesbian is not a gender :-)

Pretty good write-up here: [ruth-ng.co.uk...]

[Marshall]

This is a can of worms on steroids. No matter what you do, you will not win, so to speak. And playing devil's advocate here, what legal issues might you be raising if you omit an identity? The best and surest action is to not ask.

[lucy24]

I'm not sure how to get around it for the personal ads.

That narrows it down a lot. Unless you are running some VERY niche advertising--which doesn't seem to be the case--it's not going to make a difference whether the person is cis or trans. And perhaps your users, regardless of gender, aren't interested in gendered ads anyway. (Have you seen TV ads aimed at young children? Eeeeeuw.) In that case you could easily get by with an M/F toggle, and make it optional.

And, ahem, find some way to avoid letting users know that the main reason you're asking is to know which ads to aim at them.

[csdude55]

For the sake of clarity, by "personal ads" I mean a section where users are looking for romance (give or take) with other submitted users. I guess I should have called it a "dating site", but I'm still using the old newspaper terminology.

This is where I get hung up. Step one is for the searcher to define their identity, step two is to state the identities they're interested in, then the query matches them with the users that have submitted matching data.

Lesbian is not a gender :-)

Great point, @robzilla, so I guess "gender" isn't even an appropriate term. Blerg.

The real issue here is that I need for people to label themselves and others in a society that doesn't want labels! LOL

[lucy24]

Oh, whoops, you really did mean personal ads. Yeah, it was easier in days of our youth when there were only four categories (2x2) :)

This sounds like a case where you will have to spend some time working out exactly what kind of site you want to be, and who your desired market is. At one extreme is the full list of 15 options on each side--and then you get to choose between radio buttons and “pick all that apply”--for a rather daunting result of 225 permutations. At the other extreme, there definitely exist sites that admit of precisely two options. (Yours is presumably not one of them, or you wouldn't be asking.)

[tangor]

Hmmm ... pondering the possibility of lawsuits if what was declared on the site wasn't exactly what the other person thought (difference between biology and trans, for example).

Things have become much more complicated as this all evolves.

Interested in how you work it all out!

[jay5r]

Gender is about how you present yourself. So there are basically 4 options:
- Male
- Female
- Non-binary (neither male nor female)
- Gender Fluid (depends on the day)

However, in the context of personal ads, the person's "equipment" is relevant. That's "sex" (not gender). You could ask about genitalia…
- Male
- Female
- Other (e.g. nullo, intersexed)

OR you could combine the two (since asking about genitalia is a bit odd)…
- Male
- Trans Male
- Female
- Trans female
- Non-binary Male
- Non-binary Female
- Gender Fluid Male
- Gender Fluid Female

I agree that most cis folks don't know they're cis, so using that term just creates confusion. Having terms like "non-binary male" isn't ideal, but it makes sense in that particular context - and it should reduce instances where they may face violence due to the other person's expectations of their sex and gender not being met.

[csdude55]

I can work with that, @jay5r. And I may include another field for users to suggest something else if they feel like they're not being represented, which would just come to me to consider.

Please forgive me if I'm using any outdated terms here, but I'm seeing a large number of men on my sites that present themselves as hetero and cisgender, but like to wear women's clothing to meet other men. This is what actually started me on this path, because they don't really present as men looking for men, they don't present as women looking for men, and I don't think that they would be considered trans. Is "Cross Dressing" still an appropriate term?

And I'm only guessing that it's not OK to differentiate "Pre-Op Trans" from "Post-Op"? That's a tricky one, as I can imagine that a lot of hetero men would be open to meeting a transgender female that has had sex reassignment surgery, but not necessarily open to meeting someone that has not had a surgery.

[jay5r]

Cross-dressing is still very much a thing. Think of that a fetish though, not a sexuality. Rudy Giuliani used to cross dress and he's not trans. And apparently J Edgar Hoover was a cross-dresser as well. That said, one of the first steps for a trans person is cross-dressing to see how it feels to them to be the other gender. So some people who cross-dress later go on to be fully trans, but most people who cross-dress aren't trans.

One other thing I should mention is that at least among academics who study gender and sexuality (though perhaps not in "the real world"), "gay" and "straight" describe who you want to have relationships with, not who you have sex with. Hence "straight men who have sex with men" (straight MSMs) are actually pretty common - they want a committed relationship with a woman (and possibly have kids, etc.), but want to have sex with men on the side. It's based on the idea that there's a lot more to marriage than just sex. Add that to an open relationship and it can all work if the woman is aware of what's going on and OK with it. Unfortunately, due to social conditioning resulting in a lack of acceptance, it often means the guy is cheating on his wife (sexually, but possibly not emotionally) because he doesn't feel he can be honest with her.

Just realize with your site that people may be looking for a relationship with one sex/gender but sex with other sexes/genders.

What you may be seeing with straight guys cross-dressing to attract other guys may be "straight MSMs". But more often than not gay guys are attracted to masculinity, not femininity - so the cross-dressing guys will be attracting bisexual guys and other straight MSMs. It's not necessarily a "gay thing". (Same can be said of femmy gay guys - they tend to attract bi and straight guys.)

In terms of pre-op vs post-op… Bottom surgery isn't necessary to be trans. For trans men bottom surgery often "isn't successful", so AFAIK the majority of trans men don't get bottom surgery. Honestly I don't know how many trans women go for it. That's why I separated gender from genitalia. I would guess (but I'm not sure) that most post-op trans women would simply describe themselves as "female", not "trans female". It probably depends, in part, on how early they transitioned and how well they pass (are there still signs of them having been men?)

At the end of the day it's always best to let the person define themselves, so your additional field where they can do exactly that is a great idea.

[csdude55]

Thanks for all of the input!

Unfortunately, due to social conditioning resulting in a lack of acceptance, it often means the guy is cheating on his wife

Yup, this is the WIDE majority of the cross dressing listings that I have. Mostly older men (60+) and married to a woman, but want to have sex with men on the side.

I think that I'm going to set it up with the list of 8 radio buttons that you gave, plus the addition of "Cross Dresser". Then I'll include a tooltip so that they can mouse over each one to find the definition as given on GLAAD, along with the date in case it changes in the future.

Then I'll have a 10th button for "I am not listed", where they can label themselves in any way that they want. In the database, I'll simply have this as "Other" (or maybe "Not listed") so that the searcher can include it in their list of potential matches, with their label listed in the profile itself. If I see a significant number of a specific label in that category then I can always add it to the primary list.

I might include a notation under "Trans Female" that if they have had a complete sex reassignment surgery then I would recommend that they list themselves as "Female", but that it's ultimately up to the poster on which category is best.

And finally, I'll include a disclaimer that I'm just a cisgender male that's doing my best to be inclusive, and that if I'm using outdated terms or excluding a label then it's out of ignorance. My primary concern there is that "tranny" was once an official term but now it's considered offensive, so there's no way of knowing whether "trans" might one day become offensive, too.

[tangor]

As jay5r noted, there are many aspects to these questions. If you include "cross-dresser" for fetish you might need to include "furry" or ...


... and where does it end?

Might be easier to let the folks say in their classifieds who they are and what they are looking for instead of asking a question for the database in the first place.

Just sayin'!

[edited by: not2easy at 9:56 pm (utc) on Sep 13, 2022]
[edit reason] ToS #8 [/edit]

[mack]

What about changing the word gender to sex and just leaving it as male or female?

Many see a difference between sex and gender with Sex being binary and a biological fact. Many see gender as different and how someone chooses to align themselves. I don't claim to fully understand it, but I think using male/female to refer to sex is a safe option.

Mack.

[csdude55]

@tangor, that's a whole new can of worms! LOL You would be amazed, man... I've had two people reported to me in the last two weeks: one has a particular interest in bestiality, the other... incest! They've only discussed it by Private Message so there's nothing I can do, but it's obviously enough to be disturbing to the people they contact.

So yeah, I can't exactly list every potential kink. I'm only considering "cross dresser" because it happens enough to become a problem. Especially when they present themselves as a woman to a straight man, and then when they meet... bing bong, hello! LOL (you have to read that in Stewie Griffin's voice... please tell me that someone else gets the reference?)

But I have to have a way for searchers to specify their interest, so I have to have SOME sort of label. Especially since Google doesn't like the personals at all, so I can't even place Adsense in the M4M listings.

Maybe a smarter move would be a separate optional text field where they can enter... what, "Kinks & Fetishes"? I cringe to think about what THAT might include! LOL


@mack, it may be different in GB, but in the US this is a bit of a controversial hot topic. Especially in the Southern states, which is my target audience.

Someone that's born as a male but identifies as a female, for example, might list themselves as a female in the listing and then be confronted with violence when they actually meet in person. Or be the violent one if the encounter doesn't go as planned. And more commonly, I'm seeing an increase in non-binary people (eg, people that are born male and seem to embrace it with full beards, but also have feminine hair styles, wear make up and women's clothing, etc).

My goals here are to:

1. be inclusive for the sake of societal growth

2. stay up to date for the next generation, where these non-traditional genders are more commonly embraced

3. eliminate a lot of confusion and anger, such as when cisgender men connects with a cross dressing male that is pretending to be a cisgender woman

[lucy24]

when they present themselves as a woman to a straight man, and then when they meet... bing bong, hello! LOL (you have to read that in Stewie Griffin's voice... please tell me that someone else gets the reference?)

Funny, my mind went straight to Cabaret: Wait ’til he finds out what little Elsie’s got. (She said, dating herself.)

[jay5r]

@mack - You can't just have sex without also mentioning gender. It will result in violence against trans folks. Unfortunately, in this political climate some people are rather strident in their opposition to anyone who is trans and not making gender clear up front will result in trans people being beaten up and even killed. Even when you do make it clear up front, trans people are at risk. But the risk is minimized by setting clear expectations.

@csdude55 - I applaud you for "getting it" and really trying to get it right. Good luck!

[tangor]

I think we all get it, but the question is how to get it on the screen then into a database then displaying it without offending someone/everyone in the process. (sigh)

Wishing all the best!

[Sgt_Kickaxe]

Don't ask unless you absolutely need to, just accept and respect everyone.

If you must ask then this is practical advice, do what the major ID issuing gov departments(driver liscence, health card etc) do in your state and you can't get in legal trouble should problems arise. It's the current accepted norm. Right now the question is "Sex" and acceptable answers are male, female and X in most states.

This reply isn't legal advice, it isn't politically motivated, it's meant as practical advice directed at webmasters for website issues.