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The case of Wordpress / Lessons to learn

A confusing history but quite unstoppable

         

explorador

3:43 pm on Aug 28, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Study cases fascinate me (those well documented), and can be a great source on learning to succeed creating great products/services, but can also be confusing on why something made it big despite negative characteristics or lack of functions, "bad products", yet still interesting: market acceptance can be challenging. I don't know, perhaps being unclear on what the product is and what it does can be elastic and positive to presume it can do lots of things (that probably can't do, or almost-can-do), at the end of the day: if people believe it can... they will use it.

It sucks, that's the word used out there. A search for Joomla, Drupal, Typo3, Magento, OpenCart, even Laravel, Cake, Symphony, Yii + "Sucks" brings from thousands to a few million results, nothing compared to x15 times the results on Wordpress sucks (hey, even 500,000 vs 5 million is a huge difference). This can't be used as a solid bulletproof argument about Wordpress being bad or worse compared to other players, I know, but we can also compare the amount of active and also abandoned threads on (dev and CMS) forums where even the things promised to work... don't work, and many offered solutions partially worked or didn't work. Joomla? Magento? LARAVEL? and Wordpress? apples and oranges, not quite. Wordpress use is so widespread it's been applied to all sorts of cases, even where it shouldn't be used, but hey elasticity is part of the premise or at least something we should keep in mind when we talk about how much people use Wordpress for anything, perhaps that's part of the problem, as many general use tools and frameworks suck because they aren't great at anything in specific (keep in mind the words of Lasmus Lerdof (creator of PHP, directly asked on his opinion on PHP frameworks).

About "it sucks": let's remember VERY FEW will post an article on why the tool they are using works and makes life easier, but many will take the time to write about something that ruined hours of work or made everything fail. Digital "hate" is a big motivator, it has server as energy even to code new apps.

Unstoppable even if it fails. Where I live, a huge company with lots of budget started using Wordpress 10+ years ago despite advice against. The department promoting this was trying to open the doors to external devs that were not well trained, and the head of the department lacked the knowledge to understand the mistake. It's not new: if it's too difficult, lower the standards instead of hiring more well prepared people. The result among many issues is: sites were crashing on weekly basis. There were issues everywhere, from design, security and even performance. Then the "experts" said a more powerful server was needed. This was an infinite list of something-fails->add-something-new-that-will-fix-it, same attitude would have got me fired but it worked for them.

Performance issues. At that time I was managing (for the company) 5 websites around 7K daily unique visits per day, the smallest one had around 1,500 daily visits. ALL in the same server, while two Wordpress sites were enough to make same-server-features crash. New servers were configured, then hired, then specialized servers to support Wordpress. Never in my life I witnessed something failing and getting extra help and funds to-make-it-work (except in the government). Even the main site of the company (managed by a team of highly trained monkeys) was able to handle all the load (gazillion views per month) with no sweat, but it was a custom made tool (just like the sites under my care).

A real life comparison with Drupal?, at least in this case. I was preparing to leave the company so I proposed to move the sites under my care to Drupal. Yes I had a more positive view of Drupal over Wordpress but that wasn't the reason, I really researched to present the options to the staff and leave the decision to them, they would need an intermediate solution (not custom made), so they could hire someone else later, after all there was no manual for the CMS I coded, or the CMS used on the main site (coded by a team). After the discussion I got the green light and all 5 sites with still the same traffic were fully migrated to Drupal (I coded the migration, there was no tool for that). And... it worked, same server, same 5 sites on the same server, no load issues. Wordpress sites a the hands of other departments were still crashing. Years later they moved everything to Wordpress, they wanted an "all Wordpress team". Yes they killed several sites with decent traffic ending up around 200-500 visits per day, and the guys hired couldn't migrate the data. Only one website remains till this day (2020) and the main page weights 10.1MB, fails quite often, it's ugly and slow, scores 6 on Google Insights for mobile and 36 for desktop, that's out of 100 points each.

It's different people. Sysadmins, techs and experts in security came from banking companies and worked there, all of them were gone. Then we had lots of people stepping in who said they could code, but they couldn't, all they could do was Wordpress. This was a dark chapter in the company as many websites started failing and people got used to. Many meetings involved advice against this or that, and all of that was ignored, there was a lot of human-administrative-issues involved, Wordpress was gaining space there despite the problems.

Again, I wouldn't consider that alone a bulletproof argument against Wordpress, many things wen't wrong and things failing are also common among other CMS and Frameworks. The thing is:there is no personal case against Wordpress, instead: just questions and interest on the topic, because there are lessons to be learned that also apply to other products and services, even perhaps operative systems, some other apps that failed managed to get great success in sales, it was a matter of people believing in them (even if they didn't work well), and so there was no need for a salesman, people would do the buying (and even selling) of the idea for free..

explorador

3:47 pm on Aug 28, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



But... nothing beats being "FREE", we need to lower the costs. Well other CMS and Frameworks were free, and after all I coded the CMS for those sites and remained there for free, Drupal is free, etc. It would be very easy to argue on how some options beat Wordpress on different cases on efficiency and scalability, and were on the same level: free, but that was not the case: there was a hidden cost on maintenance and training. After all not even Drupal developers charge the same average compared to Wordpress developers, it gets worse when we talk about specific Frameworks. The thing is that company an others WANTED to give the websites to full teams of people updating content (non techs), people who only required to know how to handle MS Office and then would say they were "content creators on Wordpress" or worse: developers (while they couldn't really code). Even I could see the point, there was the need to eliminate the middle man and techs, even hiring and replacing them took time and was expensive, while replacing a-nobody updating a Wordpress site or testing free themes was so easy.

Confusion and "Wordpress got better". Suddenly (years ago) many people in the market, both clients or companies wanted Wordpress because they have read success stories, many of those were about sites with very low traffic, or just self marketed products, not real success, the thing is Wordpress gained a reputation of being free, easy, pretty, effective and "anyone can do it". Yes it got way better (we could easily shot down WP sites back in the day with just one url), and functions improved, but you can still find everywhere, people suffering issues with Wordpress and developers walking out of meetings or hiring processes because the companies wanted them to build projects on WP. It's not about pride, it's knowing things are going to get ugly and the bosses want you to make a horse fly, again: there are specific tools and ways to do things, Drupal was more a CMS and a content framework than WP, still many people insist on bending WP to make things work.

Yes, -confusion- because despite that fame alone (above), many big players started using Wordpress, and that was enough for lots of people to say "oh, we have to use it too". Had a job opportunity at a big company using WP for everything, I was "what?" and they were proud because "that company" (name omitted on purpose) was using it and they made their research finding they should use it too. The thing is a few big ones started using WP but had dedicated devs and were also using heavily modified WP versions, but here locally they didn't know that, they just believed WP is magic and anything could be achieved with plugins. That wasn't entirely tue. Many WP sites would work for a few years and then would absolutely crash because there was an update breaking compatibility with the used plugins. I worked at places/projects where I warned them about this and they didn't listen... and then the sites went down. Simple as that.

They went the WP route. That huge company... now replaced their main website with WP, it is slow, way slow, weights a ton, and just like his main competitor (also using Wordpress) scores really low on Google Speed Insights, in fact many times I can't get the score because it fails and breaks. Sometimes (when it completes the process) they score around 2 on mobile and 25 on desktop). It's not about magic tools and scores, it's a reference, and the audience feels it because the sites look terrible on mobile and sometimes won't even load after waiting for the page to be painted. THE SAME site was achieved with better methods and technologies.

It's not just about the budget, it's about the people. It's about wondering what happened there and why, it involves believing on a brand/solution as a magic product, it's arguable about being free (because there are lots of hidden costs along the way), but it has a lot to do with lower costs getting people to work on the sites/content and how easy it is to replacing them. Get a LARGE user base and you will get a HUGE farm of possible workers at lower prices because offer and demand also works there.

I can't help but think:If people believe in it, they will use it even if it partially works, even if there are better solutions out there (paid or free). In terms of software, sadly, just as many apps and OS got "better" but slower over the years, so the technology grew to make them work, then you would need a faster computer for the same results (arguably, sometimes better). But that's not the case, efficiency doesn't work like that.

It's not that I dislike or hate Wordpress (but yes I dislike it). My personal taste was removed from what's written here. I was about to post this here in case anyone wants to discuss or post something, and my interest was reignited after the "Why not Linux" thread. I consider Wordpress to be a great potential study case on why certain apps or software make it big, specially if there are similar considerations to the "free, can-almost-do-it-all Linux", while Linux is a superior beast in my mind (positive) and there are many things that make me wonder WHY WP is such a thing and Linux is not exactly comparable in widespread use, but that's complex, not a premise, just a consideration, diff beasts, diff situations.

I can't help but remember long talks with people who were in charge of specific jobs in companies who explained why many times "low budget" is not positive because to many it means "cheap", and many times "free" means something worse. Yet WP doesn't have that problem, or so it seems. AGAIN, as said, I really consider WP to be a case study. Many apps and software would like to get the same success and market penetration, also profitability (yes WP is free but doesn't mean teams coding the main package don't get paid). And let's not forget, many areas of work have players who didn't make it, despite having better products.

At least for now, I understand more than ever how some people in some job positions, would welcome a tool that "anyone can use", something even a monkey could use... even if the final product is not perfect or far from it, after all those same people lack the real skills to tell the difference. Many mistakes in the market involve precisely that: the easy and low price of widespread use instead of the value of specialization. And more than ever I have witnessed how many people apply magical thinking (that's a real concept) in the market and jobs, thinking pretty names and stats report are part of the success, while it's the product, the service, but they will love tools that provide pretty graphical reports of... whatever. I had far too many meetings where people were talking to me the value of their reports (including analytics) and there is no ROI, no conversions, but to them "opening a chat window" is a conversion, see? here we have a high day, see it here on the report!, well the chat window opens up automatically on many sites, and people still leave. The mind of the consumer is a black box.

TorontoBoy

5:21 pm on Aug 28, 2020 (gmt 0)

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I'm a WP and Drupal dev, and have dabbled with Joomla and Magento. I do agree that WP has its shortcomings, but put it in front of an average user and they can add a web page with no issues. It is dead easy to use. Drupal is so much more complex for them. Yes, the WP hysteria of one size fits all applications is pretty rampant and should be toned down, but overall the UI of Wordpress is so much easier that it is easy for regular regular people to love WP, and I mean LOVE.

I have told people to go to wordpress.com, do the 5 minute install and put up their own site. They are so proud that they could do all this on their own, all without tech help. It is very compelling. Who wants to hear about information architecture, redundancy, response times, Google rankings and other such technical jibber jabber. And if they can do a WP site on their own, then it must be better than Drupal, Joomla and all the rest that they've never heard of.

And maybe you should lay down on a grassy patch and contemplate the fluffy clouds passing by. Life's not long enough to be annoyed by these issues. We're in a pandemic. If it works, even a little, it's fine.

explorador

5:32 pm on Aug 28, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



@TorontoBoy, exactly. All of what you mentioned must be added to why Wordpress has to be considered as a case study, and related to other areas, many things apply to software development (exactly my point). Didn't post that to save space, but yes wordpress.com was mentioned on a few serious articles and even small documentaries on why WP made the difference, because you can pick the package and you can also go the .com router where everything is already configured, supported and optimized. Again "case study" angle, it's interesting why it doesn't click with many people as Wix. Several people consider the existence of wp.com as a critical factor that helped VS other cms not having it.

Zero problems with WP (me), I don't like it, have used it, coded, etc, just not my tool, but quite interesting as a study case.

tangor

9:31 pm on Aug 28, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



WP is to the web that word processing was to the computer. Anyone can use it. And because any one CAN, you can get ANY kind of results.

When Front Page first appeared all of a sudden the number of PUBLISHERS (old style books/mags/newspapers) increased by a gazillion percent. Didn't mean they were as good as the embedded industry a century or two old, or knew what they were doing AND WHY. But suddenly everyone was a publisher.

Same on the web. WP broke the bar to establishing websites that were ... ahem ... functional without any knowledge of coding whatsoever. in that regard kudos are extended. As for the reality ... that's people using the tool, sometimes incorrectly.

SADLY, even with all the themes available, the infusion of WP into the web mix is that most sites LOOK and ACT the SAME. Secondary, due to ordinary issues of speed, etc, these sites also REACT the same ... User have become accustomed to this, thus no appreciation for sites coded for speed and service to the user.

Even more troubling is that those who started with WP and only know WP have been led to believe they are actual WEBMASTERS due a $75k/year salary. Sorry, no cigar ... then again, as explorador noted, too many companies actually think they are internet giants because their free WP put them on the web.

Reminds me of when COBAL v FORTRAN v C v .... the list is endless! It's just a generational thing that all things CHANGE...

That said, WP is nice for those who find it useful .... just not my cup of tea.

tangor

9:40 pm on Aug 28, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



CLARIFICATION

This:

WP is to the web that word processing was to the computer.


Should have been:

WP is to the web that word processing was to the printing press.


My fingers tend to go too fast and I don't always proof what they do! Sorry!

graeme_p

1:04 pm on Aug 29, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I think Wordpress is a bit like office software: its well know and good for some things, so people end up using it for everything.

Word processors are great for some tasks, such as writing letters, but people use them for everything from posters to textbooks without thinking about other tools. Spreadsheets are even worse, people use them (most commonly instead of databases) to write (unmaintainable and buggy) mission critical software. I could rant about the latter at length.

Wordpress is good for some things. My blog runs on Wordpress and its fine - I might move away from it to simplify hosting and deployment (reducing the number of platforms I use), but that is not really a fault of Wordpress.

I do find it irritating how many plugins I need, other than that its fine. wp-cli helps admin a lot.

However, there plenty of other easy to use CMSs - there are certainly a LOT of CMSs around and I have used some that have been very easy to use (which have died or changed as people switched to Wordpress), and there are a few that look promising I will try when I have time. Not many are as easy to install as Wordpress (unless your host has a quick deployment script or a VPS image , which is increasingly common)

I think the real problem comes when people start using Wordpress for things its not well suited to. I stopped using Wordpress as my work shifted from running fairly simple content websites to things that required a lot of custom coding. I moved to Django, but Rails, Laravel, and any of a number of other things designed for that task would be reasonable choices (I looked at quite a few before making up my mind which to use).

A lot of the problems @explorador describes come from using Wordpress when it is not a good choice. Often, its "when all you have is a hammer, evey thing looks like a nail".

From my experience of people using Wordpress:

1. One client switched their public site (not the one I developed for them, BTW) to Wordpress because they had new people every year (it is an annual event) and "everyone always knows Wordpress" and they had cheap (I think volunteer - its a non-profit) "developers" to do the site. The developers disappeared, no one was keeping an eye on the site between seasons, and it got hacked (I cleaned it up for them). They also found not everyone knew Wordpress, it was not that easy to keep finding new people to maintain the site, and switched to Square space.

2. Another switched because they have someone in house who can do the design and deployment of Wordpress sites. It works for them. The sites need design, they need multiple sites, but the required functionality is straightforward.

3. Some chose Wordpress because they can find cheap developers. You can guess how that usually works out.

I think @torontoboy is right, not just because people who have used it love being able to get a site up without technical help, but because its a known brand and people feel safe. I think that is where there is a similarity with things like Linux vs Windows , or the old "no one got fired for choosing IBM", a lot of well marketed SaaS subscription, or any number cases where big brands win almost automatically (not just in this field either).

explorador

5:37 am on Aug 30, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



@tangor: yes, WP is what the printing press was back in the day, it was mentioned on some articles too that way, and yes it also created a visual standard, repetitive, negative to many but positive (and expected/requested) by many others. As you said: soon everyone was a publisher, and not too far from there, soon everyone "became a webmaster".

@graeme: I also see that effect, companies and even web agencies having a less hard time getting people who could manage standard apps/interfaces, it would make things easier, replacing devs and maintainers. Yes, things get trickier when people start using WP for non standard things (within Wordpress universe), things would be far more easy and efficient using other tools. Most added functionality (in that way) doesn't explain the drawbacks, or the risks of having an upgrade breaking the code (been there, and clients and even bosses refused to believe such things could happen, well it happened). Cases #1, #2 and #2, yes I've seen that, been there too.

I also witnessed cases of WP experts when things failed because the clients needed something that wasn't possible (exactly) using plugins, I mean yes it was possible but people couldn't do anything besides install, run. Sometimes plugins have to be modified in ways people can't (outside the GUI options), and that's as far as the WP expert could go. And yes, lots of hacked sites, and other lots of slow ugly websites.

- - - - -

There are lots of things in between. Things that caught my attention. Many clients want cheap stuff, that's fine, it's understandable, but some clients were charged US$2,600 for a Wordpress website that failed in the short term, that's amazing, that wasn't about budget exactly. Also, the huge company didn't have budget issues, after all they spent millions (yes, millions) on dedicated software connecting the whole Adobe Indesign and InCopy platform to the web infrastructure (it was an European company), that was amazing and things worked pretty well, but there was a lot of training needed, and licenses (but the software could work for years), I guess the trick were the hidden numbers in the long term. Later things got ugly in terms of budget but that happened years later.

What gets my attention are the many cases where things are instantly failing:

- speed
- stability
- errors on the client side
- broken sites due to upgrading the core and breaking the plugins
- getting hacked over and over
- having the bitter experience of bad and TERRIBLE Wordpress webmasters over and over

And all of that costing money while the company does nothing, as in active wishful thinking that the change is for the better while step by step things are getting actually worse. It gets to the point where the clients can see it but their denial is too strong. I guess hearing X company uses it can have a strong effect on clients, even if their own website fails (content aside, just the delivery).

Case study?
To me it's not a matter of liking WP or not (personally, while I do have a detailed opinion about it for clients and personal use, if that could be the case). It is an interesting thing to study regarding client behavior, rip offs, bad decisions, believing in magic, user/clients believing in the brand and not knowing the product (lessons to be learned in terms of product creating and usability, also for market), and the list goes on and on. What strikes me even more as a big surprise is the amount of sites using WP (clients) that won't even survive after 1 year, 2 maximum as the usual term in my region, real cases where I've been near. It's not about liking it or not, WP has become (unintentionally) a red flag when it comes to clients. In most cases if I see a client with strong hopes regarding WP, to me it's like hearing a client talking about magic stones to increase sales: it means -run, run far away-.

I was recently talking with a client who wanted me to fix his website. He explained the many things going bad and tried showing me stuff on screen, yes it was bad, but he wanted me to fix it using only WP and plugins, any kind of conversation was impossible and I declined the project. It was not about liking WP or not, it was about not being able to have a meaningful conversation about reality. That's a case study for me.

As years go by I become more attracted to case studies, why something makes it and others don't.

graeme_p

11:58 am on Aug 30, 2020 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



@explorardor, I think one issue is "when all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail" again, but from developers. People pick a favourite platform and recommend it to their clients.

That is one reason I think its a good thing to learn new technologies and to know something about things outside the regular tools you use. You known when something is the wrong too and either learn something else or tell a client to hire someone else.

When I ask SMEs, even well funded startups, why they picked a particular platform, it was because they found a developer they liked (often without evaluation of technical skills - more "seems like a nice guy" as much as anything else) and the developer used their favourite platform. Bigger companies tend to pick what the CTO likes (i.e. what they used before, their favourite brand, someone with sales people they get on with, where their friend works...).

This problem is not limited to Wordpress or even web platforms. It pervades the whole industry.

The other problem is the low barrier to entry. It is very easy to get things done with Wordpress with very little knowledge, which means its easy for someone to be a "wordpress expert". It becomes a problem when they try to do work that requires a real programmer (or a real sysadmin, DBA, SEO or whatever).

With regard to big companies, my experience is:

1. Their IT management are often not as competent as you might expect, so make mistakes and do not know that that their "experts" are not that skilled.
2. Using a known brand is good CYA.

tangor

8:53 pm on Aug 31, 2020 (gmt 0)

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@WP has price going for it.

It has conformity...

It has plugins (magic bullets, so to speak)

@WP has this going against:

Easily and routinely hacked.

Cookie Cutter look and feel.

Fixed parameters and DO NOT EXCEED limits.

Messy URL structures in native mode (can be corrected, but needs intervention to make that happen)

IT'S A TOOL. Useful for some, not for all.

While I don't use it for myself, I do recommend it for some, and will even support it (for $$$) if the project has any interest for me. ELSE I recommend WP to those with pie-in-the-sky aspirations as a way to get a site on the web, and even recommend a particular host which unlimited bandwidth/storage for an absurdly low annual rate which has WP imbeded in their cpanel with a click to install and done in one interface.

Would I use it for something serious? Perhaps. Depends on the site needs.

As stated, it's a tool. Use the right tool for the right project and all is good. :)