Forum Moderators: phranque
Even if it is spam, it sounds legal under the new law. Is it? And if so, is it now ok to spam if done legally? What are the posible repercussions?
Also, any suggestions on what to ask the holder of the list? I have some ideas, but I figured a discussion on the matter would be helpful to me, as well as others.
In the end, if it's illegal, it won't happen, period; if it's immoral, but legal, I can probibly stop it; if it's spam, but in a moral gray area, then it'll probibly go out over my objections; and if it's moral, then there's no reason to object (even if I don't like it).
Thanks
....few million email address which the holder claims are from people who want to receive email
I don't know what your client is selling, but I doubt that there are a few million people who have signed up to hear from him. Most likely this is spam.
It is probably legal under the so-called anti-spam law. That law was written to protect rather than prevent spam. It prevents you from using incorrect subject lines or fake return addresses. However, if you include in the message any indication that the e-mail was sent only to opt-in addresses, and that turns out not to be true, you could be in trouble.
The important thing is that people hate spam, and people who receive spam from your client will transfer that hate to him and his products. Also, some anti-spam people are fighting back in others ways best not discussed.
Unless you can verify that these addresses are from people who specifically want to hear from your client or about his products, forget about using the list. Even if legal it will likely couse more grief than sales.
Heres a link that helped me understand what is and is not spam from the point of view of a mailing list mananger: [mail-abuse.org...]
Classify "this situation" as 'contact' and yourselves as 'leads'. Such to say, even if your group does no business with this 'Holder', what do you think this 'Holder' will do with your addies?
Just because he/she could not make the sale, doesn't mean others will not have the opportunity to 'pitch' you.
Are you still thinking of yourselves as 'leads'? ;)
If you can't verify that status, you'd be excercising 'faulty thinking' to buy into the package to begin with.
Those who are acquiring fully verified opt-in lists must examine the terms and conditions under which the addresses were originally compiled....This seems to be the key.
pendanticist--
Stay away from any dialoge with the 'Holder'.Thank you, I understand your concern, but dialogue with him won't be a problem. In fact, I'm going to need to speak to him for sevral reasons.
...opportunity to 'pitch' you.I would love to se him try--it would be good for a laugh. Even if everthing checks out 110%, I still don't like the idea. I HATE junk mail, and I don't even get that much (though more than I would like). It wouldn't be so bad, but I don't need anything enlarged, and I don't think it's legal to refinance a house or car that I don't own. Properly targeted "junk" email I don't see as problem. I'm willing to put up with a little anoyance for the few I might be interested in. Unfortunatly, the bath water is SO bad, it's hard not to throw the baby out with it.
There is no way to verify claims of 'opted-in' status.That is what reamins to be seen. For a number of reasons, until given reason to the contrary, I'm going to trust his honesty, though not necessarly his accuracy. I'm going to put the burden of proof on him.
John_Shaw--
...people who have signed up to hear from him.It would be more of a question of having opted-in for related information. "From him" they have for sure not opted-in.
...people who receive spam from your client will transfer that hate to him and his products....Even if legal it will likely couse more grief than sales.Which is why, if it happens at all, a trial run of about 10,000 will be done.
Also, some anti-spam people are fighting back in others ways best not discussed.On the contrary, it would be very usefull to know. If I need to make a srtong objection, I'll need amunition.
I can't think of any legitimate company that would have "a few million" email addresses for sale.
On a related not, does bouncing SPAM really work? It seems that I've been getting more of it since I started using MailWasher to filter my inbox.
These lists normally smell like seven day old catfish.
If your email address were on the list would you want to receive the pitch. I know I would not.
Spam. I can't think of any legitimate...You're probibly right, but I'm not able to dismiss it out-of-hand as I would like to.
Farix-
For me, any company that has to rely on unsolicited emails to advertise their products is a company I don't want to do business with.True, except this company is a start-up and wants a jump start. Also, If (I know--a big if) they are valid opt-ins, then technicly it's not unsolicited. It's here where I could use the most suggestions on how to check, what to look for, and what to ask.
molsmonster-
These lists normally smell like...Which is why I need to investigate this with a microscope. Just saying "I think it's spam" isn't enough. I need to be able to back it up. And if it's iffy, what the risked consequences are versus the prospects of even 0.1% return. If I could sell them that proper SEO would be enough, it would help. But I'm not sure how to go about that, as I'm still learning SEM myself. Come to think of it, I'll go and start a new thread on that question in another part of the fourm. Thanks.
what the risked consequences are versus the prospects of even 0.1% return.
Ladies and gentlemen, the spammer's credo.
Ladies and gentlemen, the spammer's credo.I know that, as well as most people here. The problem is the people I need to convince don't. This goes goes back to why I asked the question in the first place: it's not me who needs to be convinced, it's me who needs the help convincing others. I have two people I need to convince. One doesn't even own a computer (and he's the one in charge), the other, while hating spam herself, belives this to be an opt-in list, and hence, not spam.
In this case I would be stunned if this list of millions of addresses was truly "opt-in". So tell your web host to get ready to field thousands of spam complaints.
Let's get real: who ever intentionally opted in to receive email ads from total strangers? NOBODY. At best it's a case of people not reading the small print when they register somewhere, or maybe forgetting to uncheck a box when downloading software.
So tell your web host to get ready to field thousands of spam complaints.Very good point, thank you. Being forced to change hosts would be counter productive. Since it doesn't appear to be illegal, this is likely the best argument so far. In addition, adding the host's voice to my own would be very helpful.
...documentation as to when, where and how each address was obtained.This is the kind of details I was hoping for. Thank you.
This site is not just a gold mine, but the mother load! I wish I had found it sooner.
"Danger Will Robinson, DANGER!" he said emphatically.
As for culpability, forget that. Faulty thinking. The 'Holders' responsability (real or imagined) realistically ends the moment the transaction takes place.
Yes, The 'Holder' can swear up and down as to the lists validity, but that has it's own inherant problems such as tying you up in court, providing you with forged opt-in letters and any negative impact which may arise.
If that isn't enough - suppose you were on that list. Then, ask yourself how you'd react to a blanket statement saying you 'opted in' for Joe Blow's list and are getting mail from someone else list?
Do folks always remember which list they opt-in for? If so, who is to say that what The 'Holder' represented to you (Title of List), is the same that is being represented to others? Is it always sold as "So-and-so's Opt-in" something or other? Can you be sure? Not unless you've monitored the entire process of compiling that list...in real-time.
Step away from the disk and ask yourself if you want to risk it for the sake of a little plastic disk that anyone can make and anyone can copy.
I just see way too many potentially negative impacts with the idea to make it worthwhile.
